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magnanimity's picture
Magnanimity's HH thread

  No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero1465  SBYoureSoMoney11535  Effective Stacks: 37bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is BB YoureSoMoney1 raises to 80, Hero calls 40   Flop (160, 2 players) Hero bets 90, YoureSoMoney1 calls 90   Turn (340, 2 players) Hero bets 185, YoureSoMoney1 calls 185   River (710, 2 players) Hero checks, YoureSoMoney1 checks    Hey Mersenneary!  Happy to be hear.  Started an HH review today to look for something post worthy.  This isn't the sexiest by all means, but hopefully post worthy.So villian is a BE reg.  Open % is 56Cbet % is 44Since villian has been CBH a lot of flops I started donking my value hands, and so also started donking air on boards where I think I'll have FE.  The flop lead I think is okay?  I'm kind of up in the air about it and I don't hate it yet.  I think that most villians with this type of cbh tendency are going to bet this flop with a larger % of their air hands because a lot of these types of players are checking down their weak sdv Ax Kx etc.  But here obv. theres no overs here and most everyone knows its hard to hit these boards.  But since I've set up a dynamic where I'm leading flops I thought that this was as good as any since its super dry and I don't think he's on a level where he's thinking I'll know he bets more air here and I won't get value by leading Ax so I'll check, bluff catch and lead turn, or c/c/c or c/b/b  etc depending on board run out.  So what do you think about this flop donk?  Do you think it'd be better if it was Kxxhh, Qxxhh?Turn:  I ended up coming to the conclusion that my turn bet kind of sucks.  It was my plan to bet pretty much any turn, since any card is a scare card for 3 or 4 x.  But when I hit the 10 I think that c/c or check check then Vbet large otr is optimal.  If I check and he fires I figure his range to be mostly Ax, maybe sme flush draws, or a small percentage of combo draws, but really any sdv he's cbh here.  So if I check he bets I figure I can play the river pretty easily and I also keep myself in the hand in case he decides to shove Ax for some reason, thinking that my line looks super strong, I see a lot of players flat flop w two pair and shove turn because they are scared of seeing a river.  So if he does cbh his range is weighted towards 3x and 4x hands, and since people look up bet check bet lines so wide I figure I can extract more value otr with a larger bet.  Flop:  As played the river is a pretty bad card, but its pretty easy decision to check here I think.  He'll cbh his 4x and probably his Ax a lot even, bet his 3x and theres not really many bluffs in range.  

mersenneary's picture
I think the flop donk is fine

I think the flop donk is fine - his opening percentage is high enough that he has enough junk in his range and his c-bet percentage is low enough that it's better than check/raising. Good job including those two statistics, they're super important to this question. As you'll notice reading through threads, I really hammer in the importance of opening range and how it affects so many later decisions. The big question about whether or not to donk the flop after all that is how creative and thinking he is. It's a line that's completely full of (malarkey) on this board. With some regs, that matters, and they'll punish you for it. With others, you can pound them all day on it and they don't have the stones to adjust. You should get a decent sense of which one this reg is based on how often they are check/raising light, 3-betting light, and bluffing in general.On the turn, I prefer checking or betting smaller. Your bet size is too big to get value from what you want to get value from (3x/4x/low pp) and nitty villains will fold those too much to two streets of sizable aggression. If you bet this turn it should be in the 40% of the pot range, I think. Checking is also definitely an option and I think those two are pretty close. I don't have your optimism, though, that he'll be calling big river bets with 3x/4x after the turn is checked through, unless you have additional reads to suggest that.Definitely have to check as played on the river, but if your opponent doesn't bet Ax on this river, it means he's very nitty/bad. :)

magnanimity's picture
The go and go @ short effective stacks

I posted this on 2 plus 2 but didn't get much interest.  Ohly thought that it was a good play but that I should raise more preflop, which I agree with.  Jspazz thought that I should just shove.  I was going to try to do some math on it but was working all weekend.  Heres what I wrote on 2 plus 2: I've been having a discussion with a fellow poker player about using the go and go @ short effective stax vs a common type of fish, the kind who will limp call super wide, but limp fold to any shove. If villain limps and we shove its + ev ofc and he folds near 100% of the time, but this type will also limp call near 100% of the time, and fold to most flop shoves. The times he does hit a pair we still usually have decent equity. Yeah it sucks when he hits and we lose, but long term this is going to be the best strategy. I thought this was pretty standard, but after our discussion I'm wondering what other players think. ip this hand is a snap shove, because villain is going to make our life super difficult when he calls and donk shoves, or calls and check shoves. His range isn't defined at all before we act and we're left in the dark. But when this type of player limps its nearly always weak sauce. So when we are oop and he limps his range is defined, he'll call uber wide, and we're crushing him.   Hero (BB): 2,320 (38.7 bb)SB: 680 (11.3 bb)Preflop: Hero is BB with T ASB completes, Hero raises to 180, SB calls 120Flop: (360) 8 9 J (2 players)Hero bets 2,140 and is all-in, SB folds Is there merit to this play?  should I just be shoving?

mersenneary's picture
I'd like it a lot better if

I'd like it a lot better if you didn't have an ace in your hand. It's much better to do this with a hand like KT, which dominates more of your opponent's limp/calling range, and you get credit for the ace when it hits the flop anyway so it's like you have a three card hand. I'm usually jamming or making it 3.5x preflop to set up 7bb in the pot with 7.8bb behind rather than 6bb in the pot with 8.3bb behind, a much less favorable stack to pot ratio.On the flop, it's close between a shove and a smaller bet/call. He may fold weak 8x occasionally to a shove, and may get induced with worse draws like Q5 occasionally with a smaller bet/call, but it's not going to make a big difference either way. I would probably bet/call as played but not a big deal.

magnanimity's picture
couple of boring hands vs a fish

I've been reviewing HH's trying to find some cool interesting spots, but a lot of the time I'm just unsure about super standard small ball stuff.  This is the 2nd hand vs a fish.  First hand I raised J2hh cbet KJ3cc and he cr'd me off.   I check otf for pot control.  Against some villians I'd bet but I have no idea of his tendencies.  After his cbh I'm leading turn for value, and don't mind taking the pot down.  When he calls theres a lot that could be in range, board texture devolops quite a bit.  The river I decide to price myself in and block.  Is this an okay card to block?  would you check here?No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBben6791630  BBHero1370  Effective Stacks: 46bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is BB ben679 calls 15, Hero checks    Flop (60, 2 players) Hero checks, ben679 checks    Turn (60, 2 players) Hero bets 30, ben679 calls 30    River (120, 2 players) Hero bets 60, ben679 folds    Final Pot: 180 Hero wins 180 ( won +60 ) ben679 lost -60 p;  4th hand vs same opponent.  No more reads, other then I just 3 bet and he folded.  I feel like I used to always get myself in bad situations in spots like these.  The old magnanimity would have raised this turn.  I don't think in general a cc donk of that size is particularly strong, but fish don't fold and I don't want to bloat the pot readless.  Even against a reg w/o reads now I'd just be calling this flop.  This spot feels weak cause I'm flatting w no sdv where I pick up equity, but readless I've become pretty nitty.  I've come to the philosophy that when I'm unsure I should take the certainly +ev option.  I know flatting here is +ev, but I don't know that raising will be.   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBben6791525  SBHero1475  Effective Stacks: 49bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 60, ben679 calls 30   Flop (120, 2 players) ben679 checks, Hero bets 60, ben679 calls 60   Turn (240, 2 players) ben679 bets 60, Hero calls 60   River (360, 2 players) ben679 bets 120, Hero folds   Final Pot: 480 ben679 wins 480 ( won +180 ) Hero lost -180 

magnanimity's picture
I find a lot of spots kind of

I find a lot of spots kind of difficult when villian's tendencies call for opposing strategies.  This particular villian would call a cbet 6% of the time and cr 24% otf.   It seems he's usually playing fit or fold on wetter textures and cring a lot of dry boards.  This board is so dry, and my 2's are pretty vulnerable that I feel like I should almost always cbet, but I know that a large percentage of the time I'm going to get cr'd.    So I feel like I'm going to be turning my hand into a bluff but I always feel kind of handcuffed into the line, because checking back and having an agressive villian fire two streets doesn't seem like a happy option   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1950  BBdias0891050  Effective Stacks: 35bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 60, dias089 calls 30   Flop (120, 2 players) dias089 checks, Hero bets 60, dias089 raises to 120, Hero raises to 300, dias089 folds   Final Pot: 540 Hero wins 540 ( won +180 ) dias089 lost -180 

Ph33roX's picture
I'm betting t40 ott with my

75o hand: I'm betting t40 ott with my entire stabbing-turn-range until I have reads, I think it works better than a minbet both for you bluffs and your value hands. I might bet this river with Q5 for value from 4x/5x but the fact that we lose to most 5x is annoying. I'd probably just c/f the river I think. If it was an offsuit J for exmple I might c/c and try to bluffcatch clubs/6x/7x that missed.85s hand: I think it's wp, I think this stupid mindonk ott is often a weak pair or draw making a block bet, but I don't think we have enough FE to make raising superior to calling.A2o hand: If villian is c/ring too much I think you have to be comfortable cbetting/calling the c/r with second pair type hands. If he slows down with air ott then cbetting/calling and playing straigtforward ott can be a good line for value with any pair. But for that to be correct villian must have a polarized c/ring range, if he can show up with K5 here it makes this play awful. The fact that he c/c so little makes me think that he's c/ring a wide value range rather than a polarized range, otherwise all those middle pair type hands should show up in his c/c frequency and make it higher than it is. I think it's actually possible you bluffed him off the best hand here.Also remember that given how little he calls it's still good to cbet rly wide. It's the same as some1 3betting 40% and flatting 5%, we should still open 32o vs him. So def cbet here I think. I'd call the min c/r because we have 5 outs that should be clean a lot and that we can get value out of, plus we have the best hand some of the time too. I would just cbet/fold vs a larger sizing I think.

magnanimity's picture
Thats a really good point

Thats a really good point about his calling frequency being a good indicator of a merged range, thanks yoni 

magnanimity's picture
I felt a little bit lost on

I felt a little bit lost on what to do preflop vs this villian.  His 3 bet wwas 33% his pf call was 13%.  I felt that I immediately have an edge raising pf, but its not super huge, or is it?  What I'm thinking is that on average his 3 bet is going to pick up 3 blinds and on average my raise is going to pick up 2.  If he's 3 betting 30% and gaining .9 bb per 3 bet and I'm picking up his bb 60% of the time I'm make 1.2 bb on average per raise.  This obv.  doesn't take into account the times where he 3 bets and I flat or he 3 bets I shove, or he shoves I call etc.   But I was just thinking about it as a general indicator.  So if high 3 bet % negates the advantages I get by picking up his blinds by raising light, I thought that I could include my normal limping range at these stack depths and increase the fold equity I get from raising my junk.  Not sure if this was correct.  I know I could limp call but I perfer to do it just a little bit deeper.   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBJuickaiza1105  SBHero1895  Effective Stacks: 22bb Blinds 25/50 Pre-Flop (75, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero calls 25, Juickaiza checks   Flop (100, 2 players) Juickaiza checks, Hero bets 50, Juickaiza calls 50   Turn (200, 2 players) Juickaiza checks, Hero bets 120, Juickaiza calls 120   River (440, 2 players) Juickaiza checks, Hero checks   Final Pot: 440 Juickaiza shows two pair, Fives and Threes Hero shows Juickaiza wins 440 ( won +220 ) Hero lost -220 Otf I think stab is standard.  When he cc I'm firing ott because I still have equity, his range is weighted towards the weaker pairs and I'm planning on firing a ot of rivers.  When the 5 hits I think it was a mistake checking back.  I would usually bet here, I think his range is wieghted towards 5 or 3, and theres just more 3x combos.      

magnanimity's picture
No Limit Holdem Tournament •

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1115  BBstelaras1885  Effective Stacks: 28bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 80, stelaras calls 40    Flop (160, 2 players) stelaras checks, Hero bets 80, stelaras raises to 200, Hero calls 120    Turn (560, 2 players) stelaras bets 300, Hero goes all-in 835, stelaras calls 535    River (2230, 2 players, 1 all-in)    Final Pot: 2230 This is the 10th hand in.  Villain has seemed pretty agressive.  He's 3 bet me a few times and cr the flop a few times already.  But no real reads and this is kind of the problem.  So without reads I'm just thinking about general tendencies and working with that.  I think an agressive villian is going to cr this flop pretty wide and I have such a strong hand on this board that I think flatting is madatory.   The turn bet to me seemed super weak at the time, I thought that its going to be a flush draw a lot of the time, and he was pricing himself in.  I didn't want to flat and allow him to get there so I just shipped.  In doing this I value town myself vs a Qx, but a lot of Qx is going to flat this flop.  I know its early and all, but the fact that I've been 3 bet a few times could mean a decent portion of his Qx is in his 3 bet range.   He's 24% @ 50's over 17 games which tells us nothing other then he might not be a complete maniac.  I'm not super happy with the ship and or my general logic.  Maybe I should have flatted turn and called any non heart river?  

magnanimity's picture
Quick check.  First hand

Quick check.  First hand against unknown. Standard Value bet ott right?  No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBSoSlow871500  SBHero1500  Effective Stacks: 50bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 90, SoSlow87 calls 60   Flop (180, 2 players) SoSlow87 checks, Hero bets 120, SoSlow87 calls 120   Turn (420, 2 players) SoSlow87 checks, Hero bets 270, SoSlow87 calls 270   River (960, 2 players) SoSlow87 checks, Hero checks    

magnanimity's picture
I really butchered this hand,

I really butchered this hand, but I was pretty lost as to my best strategy.  Deeper I like minring these hands, but I feel at these stack depths it might not be great, because even with a minr there is still not that much manuverabilty post.   But vilian is a nit and the reason he started limping was due to change in blind level, so I definitely think I should raise for value.  I should have just bet flop, to many Kx, Qx, Jx, Tx hands.   I knew it was the wrong play instantly.  ott theres just no reason to bet vs this guy, or is there?  I think what lead me to check was I had been on a bit of a heater, I had shoved over some limps, and been minring others.  So I felt that villian might limp more Ax hands.  I was wondering what happens if I bet here and he ships?  Vs a nit can I fold? What do you like in this situation vs LAG type villians?  Who will certainly call a minr and then apply pressure. No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBcocfyeve1010  BBHero1990  Effective Stacks: 13bb Blinds 40/80 Pre-Flop (120, 2 players) Hero is BB cocfyeve calls 40, Hero raises to 160, cocfyeve calls 80    Flop (320, 2 players) Hero checks, cocfyeve checks    Turn (320, 2 players) Hero checks, cocfyeve checks    River (320, 2 players) Hero bets 160, cocfyeve folds    Final Pot: 480 Hero wins 480 ( won +160 ) cocfyeve lost -160   

mersenneary's picture
I don't think you're getting

I don't think you're getting value out of enough on the river when you have 57o. If you're that worried about getting bluffed then just check/call river :)

mersenneary's picture
"I've come to the philosophy

"I've come to the philosophy that when I'm unsure I should take the certainly +ev option.  I know flatting here is +ev, but I don't know that raising will be."This seems a little odd to me. Just do whichever you calculate has the best equity. Sometimes you don't know whether to limp or minraise aces shortstacked but that doesn't mean you should openjam them again because you know it's +EV. Obviously that's an extreme but you get what I mean.That said, I think I'm probably flatting turn as well because I don't expect him to fold 6x to a raise and a turn bet.

mersenneary's picture
With the A2 - just calling

With the A2 - just calling the flop raise is usually going to be best, but when 3betting is best, it doesn't need to be nearly so big to accomplish what you wnt to accomplish. You're not bluffing. You just think you have the best hand and don't want to let him realize his equity. If you were bluffing, you'd be trying to fold somethign out that's better than you.

mersenneary's picture
JTs is a great hand to limp

JTs is a great hand to limp with against a wide 3bettor 22bb deep. I think I would probably check the turn - he's going to continue with too much of his flop calling range, and I basically need reads to suggest he can fold pairs before I'd bet turn and bet river. As played I agree with giving up on river.

mersenneary's picture
With the A7, the turn bet is

With the A7, the turn bet is big enough that you have a jam or fold decision. You want to get his flush draws in and not let him realize his equity with stuff you are ahead of for free with that little behind. It's a really close decision - I don't agree with you that 300 is weak. I'm fine with getting it in thoguh.

mersenneary's picture
I'm betting turn with KQ but

I'm betting turn with KQ but not so big for what you're targeting.

mersenneary's picture
I think minraising pre gives

I think minraising pre gives too much stuff the correct odds to call you in posiition and play well against you, I'd 3x pre. On the flop I'd be fine with a check if you had kings but with 99 you're just letting him realize his equity too easily by checking and I think you have to c-bet. I really don't put much Ax in his limp/callminraise range and am bet/calling flop. Turn is weird and I'm OK with a check there.

magnanimity's picture
About 3xing pre w 99.  Are

About 3xing pre w 99.  Are you doing that at any stack depth under 20 bb?  I know theres no need to balance vs fish, but what if we're playing a thinking player?  I've read where spamz said its okay to minr pre oop at these stack depths, because it gives us more manueverability post flop, but hands like 99, 88, 77, I understand we don't want to give good odds for overs to hit.  So once a decent player has reads on us do you think that its giving away too much information about our hand strength if we minr w KQ AK AQ etc and 3x with the pairs mentioned?  Or I guess its just occuring to me I could balance vs regs by 3xing some 98s, 910s as well?  

mersenneary's picture
I'd actually only minraise

I'd actually only minraise with big pairs and think spamz is wrong there. But there are different schools of thought. I wouldn't worry too much about balance regardles, but you're right that T9s stuff can be great to add to the range.

magnanimity's picture
  This is the third hand in.

 This is the third hand in. 3rd hand in the match no real reads.  He min bet turn after I cbh in first hand on 1067h Kh and I raised him off.  I'm thinking river easy fold, but is the turn a possible fold?  A random raises a monotone board and then barrels turn HP seems pretty strong.    $15/$30 No Limit Holdem • 2 Players Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero$1560.00  SBpokerassi89$1440.00  Effective Stacks: 48bb Pre-Flop ($45.00, 2 players) Hero is BB pokerassi89 calls $15.00, Hero checks   Flop ($60.00, 2 players) Hero bets $30.00, pokerassi89 raises to $60.00, Hero raises to $150.00, pokerassi89 calls $90.00   Turn ($360.00, 2 players) Hero checks, pokerassi89 bets $150.00, Hero calls $150.00   River ($660.00, 2 players) Hero checks, pokerassi89 bets $390.00, Hero folds   Final Pot: $1050.00 pokerassi89 wins $1050.00 ( won +$330.00 ) Hero lost -$330.00 

magnanimity's picture
  One of my biggest leaks

 One of my biggest leaks used to be calling down too light, and sometimes I still level myself into being a station.  This is 11th hand in, villian hasn't got out of line at all so far.  Should that be a deciding factor in whether or not this river is a fold?  I ended up calling because so many draws missed, my range looks pretty weak after I cbh ott, so I was thinking a PSB doesn't make too much sense for 6x, and Qx should be a bit worried about me cbh BP ott.  But its not like average fish is a thinking player.  Villian is -13% roi over 1232 games @ $38     $15/$30 No Limit Holdem • 2 Players Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBTLatvala$1620.00  SBHero$1380.00  Effective Stacks: 46bb Pre-Flop ($45.00, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to $60.00, TLatvala calls $30.00 Flop ($120.00, 2 players) TLatvala checks, Hero bets $60.00, TLatvala calls $60.00 Turn ($240.00, 2 players) TLatvala checks, Hero checks River ($240.00, 2 players) TLatvala bets $240.00, Hero calls $240.00 Final Pot: $720.00  

magnanimity's picture
When you give Jhub advice on

When you give Jhub advice on certain hands and what their expectation is, like KT being a little bit better then BE call oop, or Ax hands being -.05bb, where do you get these stats?  Is it from looking at your database?  Aren't villian tendencies the most deciding factor for our expectation of calling oop?  Other then just his opening range?  The area I'm really foggy on is what hands I can limp call with @ 15-20 bb.  Vs a villian w a wide 3 bet % a lot of the time I don't feel comfortable opening say 78o.  Often I'll get into situations where I'll have calmed down my opening frequencies, but I'll get a small heater of an Ax, Kx hand in the SB, and win a pot oop, where its almost to the point I can taste a 3 bet shove coming.  Villian will raise my limp often, can 78o be a limp call?  I think I remember watching a video where you said minr folding 56s is going to be best because its too weak, and that limp calling 98s was going to be best.  Obviously 98s is a great hand to limp call, but in certain situations is 56s going to be okay to limp call?  How do I figure out this information on my own?  Are you stoving your range vs his range and making some kind of calc?  ARe you using stox ev?  Is it just general consensus among winning players?

magnanimity's picture
Do you have any general

Do you have any general advice on creating a CBH range vs oppenents with a high cr range, and opponents that are stations?  Vs both I tighten up pf, and I tend to cbh hands that have some equity, ei gut shot plus over, weak FD's, I'll cbh TP the odd time so that he'll come down his turn stabs, or turn cr's.  VS Fish stations I tighten up a lot pf.  If their not folding more then 30% of the time its a huge problem and I think I just need a stronger range so I can Vbet the hell outta them.  If they can't be barreled I see it as my only response.  I start cbetting larger to get more value from my made hands and increase FE when I have air.  I cbet my air and Strong hands and cbh hands we decent sdv, A and K high type hands.

magnanimity's picture
  This is the second hand in

 This is the second hand in a match vs unkown.  Villian 3 bet shoved over my minr on the 1st hand. I've seen you give advice to check shove in these situations, but I'm too deep here no?  Is the turn a call or easy fold?  That was the only bet I was planninng on calling.    $15/$30 No Limit Holdem • 2 Players Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBVijuks1954$1560.00  BBHero$1440.00  Effective Stacks: 48bb Pre-Flop ($45.00, 2 players) Hero is BB Vijuks1954 raises to $60.00, Hero calls $30.00 Flop ($120.00, 2 players) Hero checks, Vijuks1954 checks Turn ($120.00, 2 players) Hero checks, Vijuks1954 bets $60.00, Hero calls $60.00 River ($240.00, 2 players) Hero checks, Vijuks1954 checks Final Pot: $240.00

magnanimity's picture
  Which video is it where you

 Here I asked which vid was the one where you talk about 3 bet shoving Ax hands, but I found it, its the advanced end game concepts vid.  Gonna watch it today :) 

magnanimity's picture
    Here I actually thought

  Here I actually thought villians 3 bet range was over 40% so that I could profitably 4 bet shove.  Against a villian who has a tigher pf raise percentage say 30%, would this be a hand you woud advocate limp calling?  I thought I remember you saying in a video that a hand such as K8s was just to strong to limp.  So is the best option to minr call a 3 bet?  We're playing a large pot @ 25 bb stacks, but should be ahead of his range K8s flops well  and we're ip.  At what point must we start playing minr fold or minr shove.  I guess this again comes down to estimating our expectation and its a real grey area for me, especially in this 15-25 bb area.    No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBVijuks19541975  SBHero1025  Effective Stacks: 26bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 80, Vijuks1954 raises to 240, Hero goes all-in 1025, Vijuks1954 calls 785 Flop (2050, 2 players, 1 all-in)

magnanimity's picture
I know you don't ever really

I know you don't ever really 3 bet w pure trash, but where's the cutoff for this?   If villian has a high fold to 3 bet % and we haven't 3 bet in some time can we go as low as say 85o, 74o?  Or does our expectation when villian hits negate our expectation from him folding to the 3 bet, making the overall play negative, so w should stick to trashy hands that simply flop better.  I guess I'm asking if theres what you would consider to be a concrete cutoff point or if gameflow and villian's hand can make any hand worth a 3 bet?

magnanimity's picture
Early vs an unkown.  I know

Early vs an unkown.  I know I'm going to get cr a lot, but I can't give draws the free turn.  I think I'm still ahead enough when I cr here.  Turn bet could easily be a cbet we his drwas.  I would have folded river to a larger bet size but  I thought my hand was too strong here.     No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero1410  BBpokersevan1590  Effective Stacks: 47bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 60, pokersevan calls 30   Flop (120, 2 players) pokersevan checks, Hero bets 70, pokersevan raises to 180, Hero calls 110   Turn (480, 2 players) pokersevan bets 150, Hero calls 150   River (780, 2 players) pokersevan bets 360, Hero calls 360   Final Pot: 1500 

shakorti's picture
hmm, toppair, topkicker and

hmm, toppair, topkicker and backdoor flushdraw.. how bad would it be to get it in on the flop?^^

mersenneary's picture
J3ss: I like a slightly

J3ss: I like a slightly bigger flop 3bet but no big deal. I'd also c/r as standard readless because I think most people prefer to bet their pairs rather than give a free card to spades and we have a good opportunity to raise, get more money in, and get a ton of value from the hand. On the turn I'd probably lead t150 or so myself because I think it's unlikely he'll bet with too many worse hands and will be checking back a lot of his worse spades. I do think we have to call the turn bet as played. On the river I'm fine with folding, what raise/calls the flop and takes this line as a bluff? I'd call the Qs but think we have to fold the jack.

mersenneary's picture
I think the T9 call is

I think the T9 call is probably close to breakeven, I'd definitely call a betsize less than pot, there's a missed fd and tons of missed straight draws, none of which hit pairs, so I think it's an OK call.

mersenneary's picture
"When you give Jhub advice on

"When you give Jhub advice on certain hands and what their expectation is, like KT being a little bit better then BE call oop, or Ax hands being -.5bb, where do you get these stats?"A combination from my database and from my guesstimation. Opponent tendencies do affect it a good deal, but it's good to get a decent idea."he area I'm really foggy on is what hands I can limp call with @ 15-20 bb."Depends on exactly the raising range and stack size, but limp/call 98o but not 96o, T8o but not T6o, J8o but not J6o, Q7o but not Q6o, K7o but not K5o, etc, is a decent guide. 78o is pretty damn borderline, it's a fold 15bb deep but close to a call 20bb, I think still on the fold side but it's very close.The reason why 56s sucks to limp with is because of all this 72o trash that gets a free look at the pot with great equity against your hand. You want to be limping stuff that plays better against his checking behind range than that. It's pretty rare for 56s to be a limp for that reason - closer to 12bb it can be best against opponents who won't raise limps but 3bet jam wide but those opponents are somewhat rare.

mersenneary's picture
"Do you have any general

"Do you have any general advice on creating a CBH range vs oppenents with a high cr range, and opponents that are stations?  Vs both I tighten up pf, and I tend to cbh hands that have some equity, ei gut shot plus over, weak FD's, I'll cbh TP the odd time so that he'll come down his turn stabs, or turn cr's.  VS Fish stations I tighten up a lot pf.  If their not folding more then 30% of the time its a huge problem and I think I just need a stronger range so I can Vbet the hell outta them.  If they can't be barreled I see it as my only response.  I start cbetting larger to get more value from my made hands and increase FE when I have air.  I cbet my air and Strong hands and cbh hands we decent sdv, A and K high type hands."Yeah, start checking back middle pair/bottom pair on drawy boards but continue to c-bet/call them on drawy boards. Tighten up your preflop opening range!!! If they're really c/r a ton and pushing you around that much it makes sense to make your range as strong as possible and that starts pre. Limping range can be a great adjustment too so you're not just folding too much.

mersenneary's picture
Too deep to check/shove flop

Too deep to check/shove flop with the QT, definitely. It is regardless but just remember opening % and cbetting % are extremely important to that decision. I think I would lead turn but your line is fine.

mersenneary's picture
K8s can be too strong to limp

K8s can be too strong to limp in some situations (15bb deep it's best just to raise/call), but works just fine limping rather than raise/folding this deep against people who 3bet wide but not so wide we can get it in.

mersenneary's picture
With the AT, I think we're a

With the AT, I think we're a little too deep for 3bet flop/get it in to be best against his entire range. I'm playing the hand exactly the same way as you although it's tempting to raise turn once he goes small which really polarizes his range to weaker pairs or made straights considering two pair usually bets bigger out of fear of the draws. 

magnanimity's picture
Have been doing some reviews

Have been doing some reviews and have nothing really exciting to add.  Most boring thread FTW!!!  I am getting a lot out of reading all the threads though.   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBJeRRy Iz LUv1500  SBHero1500  Effective Stacks: 50bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players)Hero is SB Hero raises to 75, JeRRy Iz LUv raises to 150, Hero calls 75 Flop (300, 2 players) JeRRy Iz LUv bets 300, Hero goes all-in 1350, JeRRy Iz LUv goes all-in 1050 Turn (3000, 2 players, 2 all-in) River (3000, 2 players, 2 all-in) Final Pot: 3000 JeRRy Iz LUv shows a pair of Queens Hero shows two pair, Queens and Jacks Hero wins 3000 ( won +1500 ) JeRRy Iz LUv lost -1500First hand of A tourney.  I ship since if I minr I look super strong, and he's going often have the odds to call.  I think that hands that are ahead aren't going to often make a psb here, but I'm going to get looked up by a lot as well, a lot of underpairs, some Fd's, Ak maybe. 

magnanimity's picture
No Limit Holdem Tournament •

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBhayekdealscards1440  BBHero1560  Effective Stacks: 48bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is BB hayekdealscards raises to 60, Hero calls 30   Flop (120, 2 players) Hero checks, hayekdealscards bets 60, Hero raises to 150, hayekdealscards calls 90   Turn (420, 2 players) Hero checks, hayekdealscards checks   River (420, 2 players) Hero checks, hayekdealscards checks   Final Pot: 420   I do this for value and protection.  A lot of his hands are going to have decent equity vs me and theres a lot of runouts I'm not going to want to c/c so I figure this gives me back initiative in the hand.  I don't expect this villian to give me any trouble without a hand here.  Villian is very passive.  

magnanimity's picture
Readless whats your range for

Readless whats your range for flatting a 3 bet @ 30 bb ?  as low as J9s?  A9s?  KTs?  I'm usually throwing these hands away readless at any stack depth.  Am I being too much of a nit?  Basically until I have reads I'm not flatting a 3 bet w anything less then ATs, QJ,  KJ, JTs.  @ 50 bb I'lll flat wider though.  Stuff like 78s, 98s, 109s.  

magnanimity's picture
In Jhubs thread his 3 bet

In Jhubs thread his 3 bet sizings with hands like KJ, KQ, QTs are on the larger side.   He's 3xing with these hands and making it 2.5 w TT plus (although you said you think TT and JJ can work well in the 3x range).  I always thought that with hands like KQ, KJ and QT's we were okay with a smaller sizing because they flop well, and we want to let dominated hands in to the pot.  With a hand like TT  we make it bigger pf since the dangers overcards represent and the difficulty we have being oop with Mid pocket pair etc, and we add bluffs in the bigger range to increase fold equity.  In turbos at this stack depth my standard is to 2.5.  So @ 25/50 I'm 3 betting to 250, maybe even less 225.  Should I be 3 betting to 300 as a standard with these hands then?  Whats the logic behind 3 betting a 40% raiser with KJs to 300?  

magnanimity's picture
  No Limit Holdem Tournament

  No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBPatriarhPK1840  SBHero1160  Effective Stacks: 23bb Blinds 25/50 Pre-Flop (75, 2 players)Hero is SB Hero raises to 100, PatriarhPK calls 50 Flop (200, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero checks Turn (200, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero bets 100, PatriarhPK foldsFinal Pot: 300 Hero wins 300 ( won +100 ) PatriarhPK lost -100  Villian has a high cr range, so I cbh.  I'm a little murky about turn logic.  What I'm thinking is that my bet is designed to fold out equity share, but I don't know if its better to just check down or why?  I'm thinking that a lot of the times if an agro villian checks twice its going to be marginal sdv, so I could be value towning myself into a small pair that doesn't want to lead, but on the other hand I often find that cbh stab turn works like magic on a lot of villians w High cr flop frequencies.  I'm guessing because it cuts down all the bckdoor equity they have otf.   

magnanimity's picture
No Limit Holdem Tournament •

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBPatriarhPK1435  SBHero1565  Effective Stacks: 18bb Blinds 40/80 Pre-Flop (120, 2 players)Hero is SB Hero calls 40, PatriarhPK checks Flop (160, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero bets 80, PatriarhPK calls 80 Turn (320, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero bets 160, PatriarhPK calls 160 River (640, 2 players) PatriarhPK bets 385, Hero calls 385 Final Pot: 1410  This river was tough for me.  The reason I ended up calling was that villian floated flop wide and had a high cr frequency.  I'm in the dark with exactly what his cr range consists of.  So I don't know if its polar or not, if he's cring weak jacks or just flatting them.  But I figured with stack depth that he would probably be cring his jacks.  910 might play this way, but in general he's going to have a lot of missed draws.  On the other hand I've never seen him take this line before, and a river donk is more often strong then not.   

magnanimity's picture
No Limit Holdem Tournament •

No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBPatriarhPK1905  SBHero1095  Effective Stacks: 22bb Blinds 25/50 Pre-Flop (75, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 100, PatriarhPK calls 50   Flop (200, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero bets 100, PatriarhPK calls 100   Turn (400, 2 players) PatriarhPK checks, Hero bets 250, PatriarhPK raises to 500, Hero goes all-in 895, PatriarhPK calls 395   River (2190, 2 players, 1 all-in)  I screwed this hand up eh? I pretty much always should be checking behind on this turn regardless of villians flop range?

magnanimity's picture
In this hand vs fastcolt you

In this hand vs fastcolt you told him  you wanted to make sure he understood why you took this line w A9 and you couldn't take any other.  It seem he understood, but I don't really.  Do you just want him to continue with his bluffs?  You think you get Ax and other two pair hands in no matter what and they're always going ot be betting river, so with this line you just get more equity from his air and the same from the strong hands in range? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBmersenneary1425  BTNHero1575  Effective Stacks: 48bb Blinds 15/30Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is BTN  Hero raises to 60, mersenneary calls 30 Flop (120, 2 players)   mersenneary checks, Hero checks Turn (120, 2 players) mersenneary bets 80, Hero raises to 215, mersenneary calls 135 River (550, 2 players) mersenneary checks, Hero bets 325, mersenneary goes all-in 1150, Hero folds Final Pot: 2025 mersenneary wins 2025 ( won +600 ) Hero lost -600

magnanimity's picture
I don't have a HH but I've

I don't have a HH but I've run into the scenario where I hold a hand I'd usually just glat to a cr, but in this case its coupled with a FD.Say fully stacked w have Q10cc first hand readless.  We minr and flop comes Q46cc  We cbet 60/120 and villian cr us to 220..,  If I just had Q10 I'd flat, and let him barrel off, but I'm wondering with the added equity if there is merit to reraising here?  The problem w Qx is that our hand is vulnerable to overs.  What about J9ss on J34ss?  I think the reason we don't reraise is that we lose value from his air and tighten his range to Qx hands w better kickers, but in this case if he does have a better Kicker we still have decent equity.  Is it better to reraise maybe @ 30 bb, where with out the FD I'd still be flatting his cr 

magnanimity's picture
Sweet!! Just played two hands

Sweet!! Just played two hands that I was unsure of!!  Only real read I have on villian is that he 3 bet just under 50 bb and called my shove w Q8.    No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBcannavaro41710  BBHero1290  Effective Stacks: 43bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is BB cannavaro4 raises to 90, Hero calls 60    Flop (180, 2 players) Hero checks, cannavaro4 bets 120, Hero calls 120    Turn (420, 2 players) Hero checks, cannavaro4 bets 210, Hero calls 210    River (840, 2 players) Hero checks, cannavaro4 checks    Final Pot: 840Turn I'm not happy I'm getting barrelled into readless, but I think my hand is too strong to fold, and am planning on folding to a large 3rd brl.  Depending on size calling, especially if a high card comes off so that I might be splitting.  when I hit the 8 I was thinking about maybe shoving for value vs a jack, but then I just own myself if he has a 4.  I think his strong Jx is going to probably fire river I was thinking about check shoving river.  No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$55 + $2.50 Heads Up Sit & Go Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBcannavaro41250  SBHero1750  Effective Stacks: 31bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 80, cannavaro4 raises to 160, Hero calls 80   Flop (320, 2 players) cannavaro4 bets 120, Hero calls 120   Turn (560, 2 players) cannavaro4 bets 200, Hero goes all-in 1470, cannavaro4 goes all-in 770   River (3000, 2 players, 2 all-in)   Final Pot: 3000  readless I consider min 3 bets strong so I just flat his cbet.  Ott since this guy called my 3 bet w Q8o @ 50 bb, I think there is a ton of value in jamming, pretty sure he calls all his pairs, and probably AK, and AJ, and flush draws.   

mersenneary's picture
QJ hand plays itself, any

QJ hand plays itself, any other play than raising flop would be bad imo.A5 hand is OK given reads, it just also needs to include the read that he c-bets a high percentage."Readless whats your range for flatting a 3 bet @ 30 bb ?  as low as J9s?  A9s?  KTs?  I'm usually throwing these hands away readless at any stack depth.  Am I being too much of a nit?  Basically until I have reads I'm not flatting a 3 bet w anything less then ATs, QJ,  KJ, JTs.  @ 50 bb I'lll flat wider though.  Stuff like 78s, 98s, 109s.  " It depends on the 3bet size, but yes, I'm playing J9s/A9s/KTs basically for sure, and I think folding those hands is well too nitty. T9s, 98s, QTs, etc are all calls as well.

mersenneary's picture
"In Jhubs thread his 3 bet

"In Jhubs thread his 3 bet sizings with hands like KJ, KQ, QTs are on the larger side.   He's 3xing with these hands and making it 2.5 w TT plus (although you said you think TT and JJ can work well in the 3x range).  I always thought that with hands like KQ, KJ and QT's we were okay with a smaller sizing because they flop well, and we want to let dominated hands in to the pot.  With a hand like TT  we make it bigger pf since the dangers overcards represent and the difficulty we have being oop with Mid pocket pair etc, and we add bluffs in the bigger range to increase fold equity.  In turbos at this stack depth my standard is to 2.5.  So @ 25/50 I'm 3 betting to 250, maybe even less 225.  Should I be 3 betting to 300 as a standard with these hands then?  Whats the logic behind 3 betting a 40% raiser with KJs to 300?  " The short answer is that people call 2.75-3x 3bets and so we're just getting more value. The smaller sizing works well in a dynamic where we're inducing and including a lot of 3bet bluff hands in our range. I also would have made it 120 with TT but didn't comment on that.With KJs a ton of stuff is going to call that we dominate whether we make it 275 or 250 or 225 or 290. Bigger gives him a worse price with stuff that he does play well against us, as well. Smaller is really only necessary with a dynamic.

mersenneary's picture
With the A8, what I think is

With the A8, what I think is best to do is make a small turn bet - t50 to t80 - that folds out his equity and so does better against his air, and gets value from some worse hands. You have to feel somewhat comfortable you're not playing against a player who this will induce, though. This works best against passive players.

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