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GetThere's picture
limped pots 2

So I've been going through a ton of limped pot HHs the last couple of days and these are the ones where I'm a little unsure of best line.No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$58.74+$1.26 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero530  SBfrommy74470  Effective Stacks: 24bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB frommy74 calls 10, Hero checks Flop (40, 2 players) Hero checks, frommy74 checks Turn (40, 2 players) Hero bets 30, frommy74 calls 30 River (100, 2 players) Hero bets 60,  I'm not sure if my default should be to lead flop for value from a ton of stuff or check and expect him to stab a wider range. I think in game I decided I'd just c/r flop and get it in cause it's a hyper and I have TP but I'm wondering now whether c/c is a better line or is our hand a little too vulnerable for that? And river I was torn between c/c or lead again. Seems like it could be pretty close but I think more value in leading. similar spot:No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$58.74+$1.26 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBStoja16500  BBHero500  Effective Stacks: 25bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB Stoja16 calls 10, Hero checks Flop (40, 2 players) Hero bets 30, Stoja16 raises to 80, Hero calls 50 Turn (200, 2 players) Hero checks, Stoja16 checks River (200, 2 players) Hero bets 80,  so in game here I'm again not sure c/r vs lead and this hand I end up leading cause I told myself we can get a ton of value from floats. I think i prefer c/r/get it in though. So if leading is wrong just ignore rest of the hand.  And finally two spots with flushdraws again I'm confused c/r or lead.No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$58.74+$1.26 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero350  SBAKlin89650  Effective Stacks: 18bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB AKlin89 calls 10, Hero checks Flop (40, 2 players) Hero checks, AKlin89 checks Turn (40, 2 players) Hero bets 30, AKlin89 calls 30 River (100, 2 players) Hero bets 60,   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$58.74+$1.26 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBNozemoko500  BBHero500  Effective Stacks: 25bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB Nozemoko calls 10, Hero checks Flop (40, 2 players) Hero checks, Nozemoko bets 40, Hero raises to 140, Nozemoko goes all-in 480, Hero goes all-in 340  looking at them now I think I prefer leading/jamming flop, or just barrelling a lot if flat called. and maybe c/r worse draws that we don't mind folding when we get jammed on. for example the last hand something like 25o could be a nice hand to c/r/f ?

GetThere's picture
hopeful bump for reply before

hopeful bump for reply before i get booted!

hokiegreg's picture
I'm not going to go

I'm not going to go hand-by-hand because my advice would be very similar for each one.Lead more, stop the limped pot c/r.It really is one of the most common leaks I've found with most mid-stakes husng regs I've coached recently.The vast majority of players do not stack off wide in limped pots. The stack-off ranges you will be getting in against with 89 on 8XX, J7s on TXXss, etc...you just aren't doing well against. You do well leading and letting people be stations though with their 2nd pairs and what not. Also, when you check these flops, you are giving villains the opportunity to check back and you are giving free equity. Ranges are then undefined and you will be lost on a lot of turns.If you are playing someone who is stabbing flops a ton when checked to, that means he has a ton of air in his range, take some hands that have some backdoor equity (J8 on 762, K3dd on Q52d backdoor flush draw, etc) and c/r those hands. if he has that much air, he's going to be folding to your c/r a ton. we want to be active in limped pots, stabbing lots of dry boards bc people fold too much. bc of this, you should frequently develop a pretty high leading frequency limped, so leading your decent hands is going to become more and more valuable. 

GetThere's picture
back to the grind :Dhaven't

back to the grind :Dhaven't played for 3 weeks more or less so going to take it slow the next couple of days and get back in the groove. in the mean time i have a list of marked hands from last month or so that I want to get through so will start with a couple of those.  No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$29.37+$0.63 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBWhiteS404520  BBHero480  Effective Stacks: 12bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is BB WhiteS404 raises to 120   Villain had raised 88% up to this point but never 3x'd. In game I thought it was an easy jam but reviewing it after I'm not so sure. Given he hasn't 3x'd the entire match I think this is a stronger hand almost always. Against A5s+, A8o+, KJs+, KQ, 22+ and maybe a few bluff hands my rough 3bet calculator spreadsheet says jam is worse than -1bb assuming he calls a jam 95% of the time. Maybe my numbers are off? Can we ever consider flatting a 3x 12bbs??     No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$29.37+$0.63 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero500  BBtradie1500  Effective Stacks: 25bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 45, tradie1 calls 25 Flop (90, 2 players) tradie1 bets 60, Hero raises to 165, tradie1 calls 105    Turn (420, 2 players) tradie1 checks, Hero goes all-in 290     This is very first hand and I don't know whether it's way too spewy readless. I don't make it 45 pre these days so must be an older hand but still curious whether raising donk lead and jamming turn is std on this board or if I should be giving up.    No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$29.37+$0.63 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBkun11550  SBHero450  Effective Stacks: 23bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 40, kun11 goes all-in 550 This is 3rd or 4th preflop raise from me, he 3bjammed first 2 times, is this enough of a sample to make A4o a call here or am I levelling myself if I snap?  Also hokie for the group chat thing, I already have you on Skype, can you add me to it? Tyty, let's cruuuushh :D

Ph33roX's picture
I think KTs is a fold vs the

I think KTs is a fold vs the first 3x raise in the match, I think assuming around 5% fold equity is pretty fair here, and I expect his range to have tons of Ax and pocket pairs and also KJ-KQ. It's obv weird bcz I'm calling an openshove here vs anyone who's not remarkably tight, but a 3x range here is def stronger than an openshovemy gut tells me we should also fold A5o in this spot, prob meh-shipping A6o+. I know that seems nitty but if villian is so explotable in this spot than the optimal strategy is going to be pretty damn exploitable, so I'm fine with doing something as exploitable as folding A5o 12 deep. Curious to see Hokie's input on thisJ2 hand - I think floating is going to be a better way to contest here, but I would like to have a hand with better equity, like 2 overcards to the 5 and some backdoor stuff, J2o belongs to the part of our range that has to give up here imoA4o - meh, If we look at the plain frequency than yea, it's a call, but so often the third agressive move is going to be value rather than bluff, I would actually rather call the 2nd 3bet shove than the 3rd, but maybe I'm giving that too much weight

chadders0's picture
disagree, potentially with

disagree, potentially with all 3first one def sucks, but with an 88% open % there is just litereally no way i can give this up here as standard. It really is wholly an arguement for how much strength you assign to the 3x, but for me i have the inclination that the range isnt as strong as you expect given the open frequencythe second one is standard for me, im basically never lettin anyone win a pot without a hand when they donk an ace high flop, flat flop and raise turn has about as much merit as raise flop shove turn. At a guess i think flat flop raise turn may be better because that gives us a better chance of being the last agressor.third one is close for me, two scoohls of thought, either he is super taking advantage of image from the tho prev shoves, or he is just a maniac, i'd be inclined to post this one to mers to see what our confidence should be in maniac/just run good reads in this opponent

 

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Ph33roX's picture
In the J2 hand I missed the

In the J2 hand I missed the fact that we have a gusthot draw, that should give up enough equity to float here, I'm def folding on A67cc with J2o vs a donkbet of 60 into 90 thoAlso, not all A high flops are equal, on A72r there are way less hands in his donkbetting range that will continue to a raise comapred to A45cc

GetThere's picture
haha see this is my problem,

haha see this is my problem, everytime i've settled on an answer someone else says they disagree :p maybe means that they're all pretty close.the KTs I agree Chadders prob depends a ton on how strong we view the 3x. Problem is that even when I added in a bunch of bluff hands it still looked like jamming was worse than -1bb. Granted, my calcs don't take into account card removal which could potentially change things quite a bit. I just feel meh about every option :P Which is the least meh for hokie "the raper" greg?J2o I'm probably being a little results orientated, I think we get a ton of folds, getting owned though just makes me wonder if it's too spewy. Could maybe make it a little less on the flop, 150ish, so jamming turn is a bit bigger, 305 into 390 i think, looks scarier than 290 into 420 imo.I'll see what mers thinks about A4o.  My question for today after going through some marked HHs (apologies this has prob been answered somewhere but I can't remember seeing it) how deep are we calling jams with 22-66? Hokie in your thread about facing 12bb jams I think you started off saying 33+ and then added in 22 aswell. What's the cutoff for each pair? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$29.37+$0.63 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBsergiodsmol370  BBHero630  Effective Stacks: 19bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB sergiodsmol goes all-in 370  In these spots it's far less likely that they're bluffing, and against most half decent villains it's a small PP aswell. Just wondering when playing at say 14, 16, and 20BBs vs someone who hasn't gotten out of line yet what the cutoff is? Vs someone who's been pretty spazzy?  

hokiegreg's picture
KT: you are making too big of

KT: you are making too big of an assumption here about his 3x range, esp with an opponent opening as much as this one. it's pretty hard for jamming to be very -ev. conversly, it's very easy for folding to be hugely -ev. so basically if your assumption about his range being strong is right, you save yourself a little cEV by folding. but if your assumption is wrong, you are potentially giving up a ton of cEV by folding. you don't need his range to be very wide here for jamming to have a +ev expectation here, let alone >-1bb. also, i think it's fair to say that most people who randomly 3x don't do it with the top of their range (the hands that dominate you). pretty sure you will run into J9/QJ/K9 type stuff far more often here than AK/QQ/AQ!in general: don't make hero plays without specific reads, especially when the alternative option is typically +ev. i think with specific reads you could probably justify flatting with T9/J9s/T8s type stuff here vs a 3x. but i'd really need to know that their range is strong and i have basically no fold equity to do this. these type hands (and better) are just never going to have too poor of expectation as jams.agree w Chadders on everything he said too. also, while i think folding is really bad here, the way you analyze the situation is good...glad to see that.J2: meh, considering the oesd/flush draw combos that will never fold, and also the fact we have no reads on how villain plays AX. also no reads on how capable villain is. and our equity with our hand is pretty awful. i don't think it's a good situation to continue. also villains donkbet sizing really doesn't leave us with much stack depth to make moves. i'd like to play back more without the flush draw on the board (less realistic hand combos for villain).if we do play back here, i think we have some better options than the line you took here...**fwiw, this situation will hardly ever come up vs a thinking player, since thinking players would almost never donkbet an AXX board with air since they should correctly expect us to play back a ton (barring some crazy dynamic). so let's assume this is a fish basically - i.e., someone who can't handread well and just plays based on their hand strength.when we raise flop here, we aren't just raising for flop fold equity. we are raising with the intention to jam a bunch of turns when flatted. because of that, we are concerned with setting up a turn stack size that allows us for a decent amount of fold equity still. when we raise flop big here and setup turn stacks of 290 with a pot of 420 - we narrow a lot of villain's range on the flop and i think bc villain is pot committed we can expect a lot more hero calls (or flop 3bet shoves). so if i think raising is best here: i'd raise flop to t130 - folds out villains flop air,  shouldn't induce him to jam draws on flop super light (i think fish will still play passive with a lot of draws...even if its awful), i dont think we look overly bluffy, and it sets up turn stacks to allow us to jam a pot equal to remaining eff stx which should usually give us more fold equity than jamming the 290 into 420 you did in this hand.if im playing someone who i think will play pretty fit or fold on turns and give up air: flatting is best, we'll be able to credibly barrel off on a lot of turn/rivers when checked to. going to be pretty hard for villain to hero call. i'd prefer a flop raise without reads that they will shut down tho, unless we have a hand that can float with decent equity (not J2).A4: you are going to need him to be jamming pretty damn wide for A4o to be a mr/call 22-23bb deep. the problem with A4o is you really aren't dominating anything, and there are a decent amount of hands he can be jamming that dominate you. my intuition tells me we'd like villain to be 3bet jamming a little above 25% for this to be a mr/call at this stack depth (possibly closer to 30%). if you'd like me to work through some math on this, remind me and i'll look into it later this week. i def don't think 2 3bet jams is enough of a sample to make us expand our mr/calling range too much. adjusments should be relatively gradual when we are adjusting simply off villain's frequencies - if we see showdowns we can adjust a lot quicker since that is direct evidence. the problem with a sample of just a few 3bet jams is villain could obv be cardhot, but more importantly...you need to remember that your opponents 3bet shove frequency is just an average of all 3bet shove situations. lots of villains who 3bet jam wide won't jam wide after just jamming 2 out of their last 3 big blinds. ive seen lots of fish do this, and plenty of regs (correctly) do this as well. so the first 3b jam might be something like 40% of hands, then 2nd is 30%, then 3rd out of 5 bb's or so is only a 20% range. this obv requires a decent sample to get specific reads on, but something interesting to think about anyways. i guess my main point with this is that: a) the average player who 3bet jams us 3 times out of a few hands usually doesn't 3bet jam wide enough overall for A4o to be a call 23 deep, and b) the average player who 3bet jams 3 out of 4 bb's usually has an increasingly more value-ish range bc they are aware of their frequency.feel like i'm rambling a bit, haha. took a few days off this weekend so just getting back in my coaching groove :) let me know if that makes sense.  

GetThere's picture
yeh makes perfect sense, the

yeh makes perfect sense, the bit about the potential costs of 'iffy' assumptions was something I hadn't really considered in the KT hand. love how you explain your reasoning and more often than not actually expand on it and end up giving advice on a whole host of situations :DThoughts on the PP question at end of #8?

hokiegreg's picture
33:  it's just a equity calc

33: it's just a equity calc comparing your equity vs villains approx range and the equity you need to call the jam.at 19 bb stx after our bb is posted facing an obet shove, we need to call 18 bbs into a total pot after called 38 bbs (or 360/760 or 47.3%)so you just need to figure out if 33 has >47.3% equity vs villain's open shoving range (if readless, the average villain's openshoving range).against a range of: 77-22,A7s-A2s,A8o-A2o33 has 50.6% equity, a pretty easy call.22 on the other hand has 45.27% equity, definitely a fold.fwiw, if you expand villains openshoving range to a really wide range of 30-40% of hands - calling the jam is still fine...still have 51%ish equity.mess around with the math yourself to get a better intuitive understanding of these type situations.hope that helps 

GetThere's picture
somewhat different question

somewhat different question for you today hokie. i know that u spent a lot of time travelling around recently and you mentioned how your poker routine suffered a bit. i'm relocating to a new country next month and was just after any further insights or advice i guess. (it's actually the reason I haven't been as active on here lately - trying to sort out visas, insurance, etc., bit of a headachefest).i mean obviously it's going to have different effects depending on each situation but just kinda wondering how you found the whole experience in terms of your ability to play poker. I'm undecided whether I should just forget about poker for 3-4 weeks until I'm completely settled in or whether it's something I should try and squeeze a few hours into every other day if I can. i know you've done some work with jared tendler and have a pretty highly regarded mental approach to the game so was just after any thoughts really!That and I felt bad not asking many questions so thought I should ask something :pWill hit the tables harder from here on in hopefully and get back with some more poker related stuff!

GetThere's picture
Two main areas I'm feeling a

Two main areas I'm feeling a little rusty/unconfident about lately that I'd love to get sorted. One is to do with 3b bluffing relatively readless, which is something I don't think either you or mers have advocated too much. And the other is Kx/Qx hands in the SB 10-15bbs. Will attack the 3b one later, for now want to focus on the second one. Kx/Qx 10-15bbs in the SB is an area I used to feel pretty lost in, then I did a lot of work on it and felt a lot better. But now having a rather interupted past few weeks I've fallen back into feeling lost haha. And now I'm questioning whether I'm actually playing correctly or just doing what's easiest. Specifically the problems are vs loose and or aggro villains. When I MR K3o or Q4s at 14bbs I'm worried that I'll be called a ton and short of flopping TP will be put in some awkward spots post. Additionally I find aggro villains will 3b jam a lot. I'm OK limping some of the stronger hands like K6s or Q9o that can limp/call but when staring at K2o I'm not so sure.Lately I have just been open jamming a ton of weak Kx and Qx <15bbs vs guys who I don't want to play post with. However I'm concerned I'm doing this not because it's the best option but rather cause it just makes life easy. Again it's obv a lot easier to mr/call KQ or limp/call Q8s, I'm talking more specifically about the junky hands. Folding seems bad, limping seems alright if they'll let me limp/stab but often this isn't the case, and raising seems like I'm giving up a lot of chips a fair chunk of the time. (although perhaps this is just selective memory)Another issue is probably that I'm falling into the trap of treating 14bb the same as 12bb when they're very different. Again think it might be the easiness factor; "K3o 14bbs, I JAM!"Maybe it's not so bad anyways, def an area I'm not 100% on lately though. A few example hands although it's more of a general thing rather than hand specific: No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$98.12+$1.88 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBLukeMorri$270  SBHero730  Effective Stacks: 14bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero raises to 40, LukeMorri$ goes all-in 270, Hero folds   He was folding pre 40%, folding to cbet only 20%, 3betting 32% +++ Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero381  BBjackstack99619  Effective Stacks: 13bb Blinds 15/30 Pre-Flop (45, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero goes all-in 381, jackstack99 calls 351   Decent reg so I guess mr/f could be a better option given he'll percieve my mr range as a little stronger. +++ Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter SBHero440  BBdimmmi06560  Effective Stacks: 11bb Blinds 20/40 Pre-Flop (60, 2 players) Hero is SB Hero goes all-in 440, Ag ain vs a loose guy, folding pre 20%, not the biggest hand sample though. +++ I'm much more content jamming suited Kx and Qx, and fine with jamming off suit stuff at 11bbs, it's more the 13-14 area that troubles me. If I have few reads on how he reacts vs limps I don't know what tendencies I should be focusing on when deciding whether to jam, limp or mr/f.

hokiegreg's picture
somewhat different question

somewhat different question for you today hokie. i know that u spent a lot of time travelling around recently and you mentioned how your poker routine suffered a bit. i'm relocating to a new country next month and was just after any further insights or advice i guess. (it's actually the reason I haven't been as active on here lately - trying to sort out visas, insurance, etc., bit of a headachefest).i mean obviously it's going to have different effects depending on each situation but just kinda wondering how you found the whole experience in terms of your ability to play poker. I'm undecided whether I should just forget about poker for 3-4 weeks until I'm completely settled in or whether it's something I should try and squeeze a few hours into every other day if I can. i know you've done some work with jared tendler and have a pretty highly regarded mental approach to the game so was just after any thoughts really!That and I felt bad not asking many questions so thought I should ask something :pWill hit the tables harder from here on in hopefully and get back with some more poker related stuff!honestly i failed at this pretty hard and learned a bunch of lessons from the experience. the biggest lesson for me was that you have to be willing to adapt quickly.a routine that works for you previously in the US may have been maxEV in that setting, but in a new setting with new variables it may be very different. like i basically tried to take the grinding/coaching schedule that i used pre-BF and just make it work post-BF on a new site, in a new country, with a new gf, and with new challenges and different priorities. obviously this is super-extreme, but it's something to consider.jared tendler once told me, "goals are what you want now projected into the future". this means, the goals you set now are just what is important to you now...it's unrealistic to make the assumption that it is exactly what you will want in the future. by the time "the future" rolls around (whatever time period that is based on X goal), it's very likely that your priorities and interests have changed drastically. it's not maxEV to stick to achieving every goal set, or stick to the same routine just bc it worked previously...you have to be adaptive and be willing to adjust quickly.hope that helps

hokiegreg's picture
Kx/Qx hands: against someone

Kx/Qx hands:against someone 3bet shoving you a decent amount, they are great hands to have in your minraise/folding range. it's unlikely villain is 3bet shoving so much that we want to never minraise/fold - so we just minraise 45-55% of hands or so (polarized range bt hands that can mr/call easily and hands that can mr/fold easily). then we limp hands that limp/call why like you suggested - maybe 20-25% of hands or so. then we fold the remaining hands at the bottom of our range. so we are playing a lot of our buttons still, 75-80% or so. but we aren't minraise/folding too much, and even tho we minraise/fold with about half our opening range - it's v unlikely a wide 3bet shoving range is exploiting us typically bc we are mr/calling a solid range half the time. the reason K2o is > 84o to minraise/fold if villain is not flatting much oop is bc of card removal - when we have a K, that takes away some combos from the typical wide 3bet shoving range. against someone flatting a wide range oop, and possibly also 3bet shoving kind of wide too: these Kx/Qx hands are still good enough to minraise. they don't limp well, and certainly don't limp/call well. remember that postflop, we aren't even cbetting half pot on a lot of baord textures at this stack depth - so when we cbet 35-40% of the pot or so (say t30 into t80), that only needs to work 30/110 or about 28% of the time. between the preflop fold equity fold equity we have (even if its not that much), and the fact we can cbet certain boards only needing to work 28%, and we will check back lots of boards correctly and delay cbet turns or just give up - it's almost certain that these hands will have better expectation as a minraise than any other option. jamming those hands is terrible. like Q5o is a jam with NASH 8.9bb deep and you are jamming it 11 deep for example. with almost all villain's calling openjams at this stack depth with at least 30% of hands, its vvv unlikely this is the optimal option for Q5o at this stack depth. same with the K3o and other example. just remember:you don't have to be able to mr/call 100% of the time.you don't have to be able to cbet every board postflop.you don't have to win every hand. 

GetThere's picture
awesome, that'll plug a

awesome, that'll plug a leak.what about suited Kx Qx though? All of those are jams 15bbs+ according to nash, against someone who's flatting/raising wide pre and post would it be so bad to jam K3s at 13bbs? Or is there no need for it?

hokiegreg's picture
what about suited Kx Qx

what about suited Kx Qx though? All of those are jams 15bbs+ according to nash, against someone who's flatting/raising wide pre and post would it be so bad to jam K3s at 13bbs? Or is there no need for it?nash is unexploitable, not optimal. we can almost always do better at this stack depth. like i said, just construct a minraise folding range that contains some of your KX/QX suited or offsuit (the ones that cant limp) and have them as part of your minraise/folding range - you don't need to be able to mr/call 100% of the time vs someone 3bet shoving you 35% of the time for example. just don't minraise/fold with too high a frequency, just fold you T2s etc, limp more stuff that flops well. mr/call wider than you normally would. but still mr/fold some too.

GetThere's picture
How deep are you flatting

How deep are you flatting weak Kx and Qx OOP? Again I'm slightly concerned I'm defaulting to the 'easy' play rather than the +EV one and 3b jamming alot at ~15BBs. I think the issues are that I rely on HUD numbers to give me open % and quite often peoples open range at 15bbs is quite smaller than that at 20+ which is where the HUD numbers are often coming from. Doing some rough calcs on a spreadsheet i have it seems like at 15bbs K5o and worse and Q5o and worse aren't really good 3bjams at all unless villain is raising 60%+. Which I'm not so sure is all that common. Vs a 50% raiser the majority of offsuit Kx and Qx seems like a bad 3b jam. So if it's a question of flatting vs folding how weak can I flat? It feels kinda spewy flatting Q4o to a MR 14bbs deep but is flatting really worse than -1bb?Obv other factors come into play such as cbetting % so do you think you could maybe explain what sorts of villains you are more happy to flat these weak hands with and which ones you're much happier just folding? I'm mainly concerned with Q2o-Q7o and K2o-K7o at 13-20bbs I guess. Sorry for a pretty general/large question haha just downswinging a bit and this is a spot often coming up where I'm lacking confidence.

GetThere's picture
Here's an example hand, I

Here's an example hand, I figured suited hands were easy jams which is why I omitted them from my questions above but now I'm not so sure.   No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$196.66+$3.34 Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converter BBHero740  SBfit finly260  Effective Stacks: 13bb Blinds 10/20 Pre-Flop (30, 2 players) Hero is BB fit finly raises to 40  Vs a 60% raiser with standardish calling range it seems a +EV jam, but vs a 50% raiser who could have lots of trappy hands it becomes a -EV jam (according to my rough calcs) Just curious what Kx Qx hands are jams, flats or folds 

hokiegreg's picture
How deep are you flatting

How deep are you flatting weak Kx and Qx OOP? Again I'm slightly concerned I'm defaulting to the 'easy' play rather than the +EV one and 3b jamming alot at ~15BBs. I think the issues are that I rely on HUD numbers to give me open % and quite often peoples open range at 15bbs is quite smaller than that at 20+ which is where the HUD numbers are often coming from. Doing some rough calcs on a spreadsheet i have it seems like at 15bbs K5o and worse and Q5o and worse aren't really good 3bjams at all unless villain is raising 60%+. Which I'm not so sure is all that common. Vs a 50% raiser the majority of offsuit Kx and Qx seems like a bad 3b jam. So if it's a question of flatting vs folding how weak can I flat? It feels kinda spewy flatting Q4o to a MR 14bbs deep but is flatting really worse than -1bb?Obv other factors come into play such as cbetting % so do you think you could maybe explain what sorts of villains you are more happy to flat these weak hands with and which ones you're much happier just folding? I'm mainly concerned with Q2o-Q7o and K2o-K7o at 13-20bbs I guess. Sorry for a pretty general/large question haha just downswinging a bit and this is a spot often coming up where I'm lacking confidence.the only hands in K2o-K7o and Q2o-Q7o that i can really see flatting <20, is K7o K6o and Q7o maybe. if villain is raising wide enough for any more of these hands to be calls, they are probably going to be best as 3bet shoves (means he has a wide pfr).i'd really recommend that you read jhub's thread from the beginning. there is a ton of range analysis at different stack depths between him and Mers - i think this will help to answer a lot of your questions here

hokiegreg's picture
forward the Q4s hand to the

forward the Q4s hand to the Mersenneary-only thread and see what he says. i feel like he'd have a better answer for you on this one. i'm still a little shaky on flatting the big-little suited stuff at this stack depth vs this opening range as well (i don't know everything!, haha)

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