Welcome! :)

I hate limping QQ-AA 20-25bb deep, just does so much worse against a ton of his hands and denies yourself a ton of value without the reads to back it up.I think the trash works much better in a minraising range because a lot of the value comes from preflop folds. When you limp you let a ton of stuff that was folding to a minraise see the flop with great expectation and that's a bad result. I much prefer to pick more middling hands to limp that have better expectation against the opponent's checking behind range, the other benefit to this is that they often can stand up to 3x raises etc. Polarized raising range, middling limping range is often the way to go when limping is a good adjustment.Weakest limp/call hands are stuff like 97o, J8o, Q7o, etc.I think weak aces and low pocket pairs tend to be really poor hands to limp with readless because of how badly they play against our opponent's checking behind range. When we have 33 it's an absolute crime when 94o gets to see a free flop with 50% equity when we have such a strong holding. We need strong reads that our opponent is attacking a lot of limps and will limp/fold to overcome that negative effect.10-15bb limping premiums becomes much more serious of an option, the trash is still generally going to be minraise/fold if you play it though without more specific reads.AT-AK are actually not the best inducing hands 13bb deep - that belongs to KQ/KQ/KT, which dominate much more of our opponent's calling range and thus play a lot better on flops, where we know he doesn't have any Ax in his range.

It was 4AM when I wrote it - definitely ask for clarification about what I mean and why! :)

Your ranges look pretty good but I'd like to talk about exactly what hands you're including because naturally PokerStove's top x% is never a good representation of it. You're definitely right to incorporate a limping range against opponents who 3bet shove wide.

looks reasonable, some of those weaker suited connectors and unsuited connectors I'd usually prefer in a minraising range but other than that seems solid.

OK, a lot to tackle here. First, where the answers are simple:"But what about RAKE?  good question..."Rake is a sunk cost. We don't take it into account in our decisions. Here's a good article that explains this in depth.http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/58/heads-up-nl/husng-theory-rake-tourn...

"@65% opening range: we discard our range in his range: -->  that should lead to a 61,5% opening range."Let's say we have the ace of clubs and the five of diamonds. I think you've removed all of the hands from his opening range which have the Ac, because he can't have it. Cool. However, what you haven't done is removed all the hands from his opening range that have the 5d, The means all all those combos of 85o, T5s, K5o, Q5s, all 5x, almost all of which is not in his raise/calling range, isn't in his opening range, either.One of the impossibilities of 3bet shoving calculations is that to do them with extreme precision, you don't just have to know if he's raise/calling KTo, you also have to know if he's raising 57o in the first place when taking into account card removal. You have to know which junk hands are in his range to do it exactly.It's not that big of a difference, only about 0.05 in terms of final expectation. My bigger issue is with your calling range. Expecting villain to call JTs and QJo but fold A6s and A7o is really skewing your results. You also seem to believe that having QJo in the calling range is generous to my argument - it's not, getting it in with 56.2% equity is a great result for A3. Same for A3o getting it in with 57.2% equity against KTo.I think with a more realistic calling range, we have about 35.5% equity and get called maybe about 1/4 of the time with respect to the overall range. It means we lose about 7bb 1/4 of the time and win 2bb 3/4 of the time.

That's not so bad, by the way - I think against a 65% opener, you can consider jamming A3o for 25bb.  Flatting has somewhat meh expectation - historically, I have about -0.3 big blinds/hand in this general spot. So if we have the read that our opponent is opening 65%, 3betting can be better (or close to equivalent to) flatting, especially if he's calling off loose with QTo/KTo/K9o etc.

All this said, I would absolutely not jam A3o over a minraise first hand of an ST, because in general, opponents are not minraising 65% of hands. On average, I would estimate the aggregate frequency of all villains is around 50-55%. Against an opening range like that A3o has much closer expectation to -1bb/hand which is much worse than flatting.Additionally, let's say we're playing against one of two villains, but we don't know which. One is opening 30%, and the other is opening 70%.If we're playing against the 70% opponent, our expectation is about 0bb from the start of the hand.If you're playing against the 30% opponent, our expectation is about -2.6bb from the start of the hand.Thus, on average, we'll lose -1.3bb when playing against these two opponents. However, even though their opening frequencies AVERAGE 50%, we still do a lot worse than the -0.9bb or so that we'd get from playing against only one opponent who opens 50% always. That's another reason not to overdo 3bet jams readless. It's a much bigger mistake against the villain who is opening 30% than it is a gain against the villain that is opening 70%.

Yeah you're right, I realized that afterwards and thought about clarifying and then was like...nah, I won't :pI mean just minraising first hand gives you some reads that it's more likely to be a more frequent minraiser, it's true.

"Calling 3bet. 25BB Sometimes there is a case where you cant 4bet at 25BB a hand as strong as A7-A9. (if his 3bet range consist of high AX (A8+) hands and pairs(66+)  mostly and only a few bluff (say like 5x4 suited semi trash). So folding becomes a better option than 4betting. Do you think one can profitably call with these hands? Say like Hyper turbos, Blinds are 10/20 We minraise villain 3bets to 90 .if so, (I personally don’t think so) what about 100 and 110?"I'm calling t90 with pretty much all Ax hands in this situation, even if I feel I can't jam. If I know his 3betting range is quite nitty, you can fold the weaker hands, but it takes some ridiculously strong reads to just fold A8 or A9 in this spot. As for 100, the weaker offsuit aces become folds, but I still think we can flat the middling aces. 110 means that it's pretty rare for an ace to be a flat, but A9/A8s can occasionally fall into that category. You just have to be really sure there aren't many bluff hands in the range because once there are, jamming becomes much better.

"An other question: have you ever seen someone  who is  3bet jamming any high ace and so tight with his nominal 3bets like KT+ 99+ , 30 combos of bluffs, That a hand even as strong as 88 becomes a fold to a 3bet. IMO not too unlikely scenario  especially if you go down the pairs and therefore can put in more hands in his 3bet fold range. Another interesting sidenote which I realized was that against opponent as described (the ones jamming high Ax)  the weak aces become  better than the small pairs equity wise,  so sometimes having A7 and 4betting it is nicer than having 77 and 4betting it.   Rare scenario but still no so unlikely IMO.  Can you agree there or add something interesting? What about different stack sizes?"I think these reads are super rare. Even in your description, 88 has 38% against KT+ 99+, so we really can't fold pre. It's true that you should feel more comfortable jamming Ax hands if your opponent is 3bet jamming is big aces instead of making a non-allin 3bet.

"Unknown: Hyperturbo 25bb starting stack 1st hand  we mr, villain 3bets we fold 2nd hand he mr we fold 3rd we mr villain folds. 4th he minraises  we have AKo,  within the last 3 hands we nearly got no information, did we ? Actually I think it is enough to justify  3betting nominal, do you agree, 1st hand he proves that he can be aggressive, same second hand,3rd hand that he is not calling any hand. Although this is really a super light indication I think that already should be enough to minraise nominal instead of jamming. Aswell I think gameflow and recent showdowns should influence whether we induce or not way more than I thought 3 weeks a go. What do you think about that??"I pretty strongly disagree that this is enough information not to 3bet jam AK, and rather make a non all in raise. The whole point of making a non all-in 3bet with AK is inducing 4bet jams from hands that would fold to a shove. Given that we have no indication anything like that is true, it's not going to be good to non all-in 3bet already.

"Minraise calling KJo , KQo at superturbos: Actually you once said (I am not sure if it was really you and I am correct, don’t get me wrong plz) Minraise calling KJ, KQ  against most players mostly isn’t a big mistake. I disagree there. Most players, especially between 100 and 350$ buy ins at past full tilt level were ways too tight with their 3bet jamming range, even if we include 16x4 suited trash hands : 64 combos  it is only break even at 25BB. But in fact I have seen rarely any person or any reg being that lose.  Only DONT STAKE ME  who had a lot trash and H2Olga who 3bet jammed stuff like KT,KJ are the only people I remember being that loose with their 3bet jams that deep.  Maybe 2-3 random fish but surely a minority. What do you think about that?"I assume you're assuming he's 3bet jamming with AA/KK/QQ. People very rarely do this, so it's bad to include it in the calculation as if they do. I think your perceptions are pretty far off here - random fish absolutely jam random stuff all the time. Against people with really defined, tight, ranges, you can start think about making hero folds, but I think it's a big mistake to do it readless, particulalary with KQ. 

As for focus, I would be asking yourself "what types of hands" questions.What types of hands is he limping?What types of hands is he c-betting?What types of hands does he like to bet xxx with? and so on and so forth. This often gets lost in just a blanket HUD number but holds a ton of information.

Oops, sorry for assuming :) I still think assuming no air isn't something you should do lightly, and KQ/KJ crush expanded 3bet ranges.

As for your list question, a couple important things to add:Realizing what range is good to limp and when.Check/raising flop percentage as a reaction to c-bet %, opening %, board texture "Which lines in general mean which hand ranges at different boards?"(because I think you can take this) This question...to put it directly...is ridiculous. Keeping it anonymous, I read it out loud to the WSOP house, and it got a a few hearty laughs. Can you be more specific? :p"Does my opponent realize that with a certain line i represent a specific hand strength range?"Sometimes, sometimes not. Again a very broad question that's very difficult to categorize."how does my perceived range affects the decision of my opponent?"Asked this question to the house as well. One response: "He will act accordingly".I think I understand - these are general questions you're asking for your list, not questions for me? 

"Basically do you agree if you have a calling station who is not 3betting or checkraising much, that you still should decrease your oppening range? ok if so which kinds of marginal hands are better to openfold?  i personally would categorize two sorts of hands: the weak one high one low offfsuit hands  and the low hands.  Against an opponent as described I prefer to openfold the second more. like i still minraise J6o but i openfold 46o, do you agree there? basically i do that because i can barrel my weaker J pair better against players like that.  but unsure!"Yep, I agree. You can also limp/stab J6o and 65o against stations pre and post who are very passive. It's best to just openfold J3o, 74o, 42s type hands.

nice thread

lol Soren I forgot you shipped that tourney for this. I'll get to ur question in the morning - ur questions are too tough bc ur a beast and I'm tired now :)

im v interested in this stuff and look forward to see what hokie has to offer abotu smaller cbet sizes, i definately live inside the box atm cbetting smaller mainly on paired and uber dry boards, i dont  cbet small on boards that i intend on triple barelling though so mainly cbet half pot on most a high flops.Would be nice to hear about checking back flop ranges in genereal because im a cbet maniac and despite having a vague idea of what flops to check back i think im a step off knowing it to the point of unconcious competence.

Ye I'm also very interested in how you guys adjust vs people who call to much both pre and postflop.Here's my take on it preflop (feel free to rip on it that's what I'm here for): Ok so we play this supposed ''donk'' who just doesn't know how to fold, fuck he probably can't even spell the word.The problem is however that calling ''too wide'' is not really that huge of a mistake in the first place, think about it he only needs 25% equity to make it work ( ye I oversimplify stuff but whatever ). Same thing on the flop with your standard half pot cbet, if you start thinking about it in this way you soon realise that folding to often vs this type of bets is a way bigger mistake than calling too much.I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of ''Dude I owned the shit out of this massive winner with my super LAG style there is just no way that this donkey could ever beat me''. Not true as a matter of fact pretty much every strategy has an exact counter strat and it's your job to find that out and force your opponent to either adjust or forfeit his bankroll.With that said let's look at your preflop frequencies, if your opponent is calling to much both pre and post flop than your trash hands becomes EV- to play and your good hands become even more EV+. So the first adjustment is to play tighter (I'm so smart) the question is ofcourse how much? Normally I just openfold buttom 30% sometimes even buttom 35-40% depending on the player and situation. A good exercise that I recommend you to do is open up your propokertolls hand range to find out exactly what 70% 75% 80% and that stuff really means.An exempel of Hardcore counter vs stations: Lately I have been playing around with having a open folding, limping and 3xing range (sometimes even mixing in a 2xing range as well). If the oppenent let's me limp and is still calling alot of my very strong 3xing range then I'm golden. (If my oppenent is good enough to adopt I go back to a more standard play ofcourse.)Just some randoms thoughts, as I said I'm very interested in hearing some in depth theory on how to play vs these type of opponents both post and preflop.  

Which reminds me of Andu's session in Barcelona:We reviewed a match where he played against a guy who was super loose-passive, but also bet when he actually had a piece of the board. Hokie suggested to keep opening wide against the guy, but firing multiple barrels, even firing three barrels.Don't remember the exact situation anymore though, I already drunk a few beers before that session ... but maybe Hokie could explain this again, please ?

the last weeks i am experimenting with different betsizing in common situations a bit more:for example a cbet in a single raised pot,  what are the variables i should look for to make it this or that size with this or that strong of a range?i guess mostly opponent behaviour,( which exactly?)  (i can think of standard things like ch/r range, floating/calling range (slowplay/fastplay made hands), behaviour/calliness on later streets,   reacting to different betsizes, yeah i guess a ton moreBoard texturemy perceived rangefeeling whether we hit the river or not glad if you add somethingBoard texture and how different parts of villains range respond to my cbet are the biggest factors for me. The easiest villains to play are those who fastplay everything vs a cbet on a wet board, so their c/c range is weakish and gets barreled off really easily. To be honest, I don't mess with my sizings A TON or anytihng - that's mainly due to multitabling, I believe that cbetting my standard sizings 95% of the time is +ev, and I find when I try messing around w it too much on 2-4 tables I just start levelling myself too hard and get confused. So maybe I'm sacrificing a little EV there for a higher hourly, but I really don't believe that my strategy of cbetting relatively standard sizes a lot is maxEV either. If I'm cbetting someone with a really wide range because they are calling too wide oop or just play faceup and fold to barrels a lot, at deeper stacks I usually cbet the same size 50% pot. Needs to work 33% of the time and vs a wide caller I think you can find enough folds if they are relatively fit or fold for that to be good. If I'm playing someone who check/raises a bunch (like 25%+), I will polarize my cbetting range between hands that can easily continue vs a c/r and easily fold to a c/r (so checking back hands with showdown value that do well vs turn/river stabs). With more hands that can continue vs a c/r in our range now, I think the common thought would be to increase cbet sizing to gain value from villain's c/r sizings. The problem with this imo is that the bigger sizings often shut down villain's c/r range a decent amount. If we polarize our cbet range correctly vs villains c/r %, and he maintains that same c/r % now that we have a lot more hands in our range that continue well - we are going to be exploiting him quite a bit...I don't want to lose that edge by messing around with my cbet sizing. When I'm playing someone who has a really faceup oop calling range, I will narrow my cbet range a lot and increase my sizing. So when villain only flats 8-K type cards at 20 bb stacks, I'm not going to be cbetting JTX / K J 9 / JT7 flops wide at all. We raised pre because of preflop fold equity and because we cbet with a lot of fold equity on certain boards, not all boards. It's unlikely cbetting air is +ev on these boards vs this narrow of an oop range. So I'm checking back and shutting down or delay cbetting sometimes with my air and marginal showdown value. Bigger hands I'll cbet like 70% or so - almost no players are folding pieces of these boards at these stacks even if they are skeptical of your sizing imo. At <20 stacks on boards I am cbettign with a wide range (dry boards), I usually decease my cbet size to about 40% pot. I do this because the average player tends to play more passively vs a smaller sizing, which makes barreling future streets better (important since I'm cbetting such a wide range and have so much air). It also sets up a little better stack:pot ratio on future street so I have some room to maneuver with my barrels. Don't really have anything to add to your example of JT7 range, I think you covered it well. Checking back air is less -ev than cbetting air in that spot. Plus when you check back your 54 type stuff, you will get some decent delay cbetting opportunities on K/A turns still - you rep that pretty well. It's a tough question tho...ask some more questions if I didn't cover that well enoguh.

Can you post your opinion to this aswell please, I am really struggling with calling stations, who play back postflop(by calling/or raising)So assuming we face a player only 3betting the top of his range say any pair, A8o+, A7s+,Kjo+ around 15%,but is calling a ton, like 50% more.Say he is a good handreader, and a calling station which can raise from time to time post. (giving us a hard time) Can you give me like an idea of a range to open 20BB+? How far would you decrease? (edit: give me exact hands plz ;)  )Mers advertised to increase the limp-stab and openfold range (see above) any point in openshoving a wider range aswell? I assume yes. Any other ideas? I like the H2olga/skaiwalkurrr raise to 2.25x in this situation, you too? You think i am right with this? I just came back from drinking, so if something doesnt make sense, guess why ;)Like JackOneill was referencing from the Barcelona camp, I'm still barreling these stations some - I'm definitely not shutting down my range to just value completely. I am weighting my overall ranges a lot more to hands with postflop playability and heavier value barreling ranges. One of the most important adjustments to this type player is eliminating hands from your preflop raising range with poor postflop playability - hands like K2o Q3o J4o 64o 92s at deeper stacks, at shorter stacks <20 bb or so eliminating hands like 42s, J4s, T3s type stuff. It's just important to remember WHY you are doing stuff - normally we raise these type of hands because it's +ev with preflop fold equity and we can cbet profitably as well when called. Versus this type opponent, neither of these are true and it's important for us to weight our preflop range to hands that are going to connect to a lot of boards so we can continue well postflop.The range I'd raise this type player with at 20bb would look something like:22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q4s+,J5s+,T6s+,96s+,86s+,76s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o (56% of hands)I would limp some of the 85s 65o type stuff if they give up relatively easily in limped pots.I would openshove up to 20bb with A2-A7 also. These hands have poor postflop playability vs a wide calling range that doesn't fold to cbets and plays back some. Also, this type of player is almost always the type to call a 19bb shove with a lot of stuff A2o is actually ahead of anyways - JT/QJ/KT type stuff, most aren't folding that. I think it just makes your life a ton easier with these hands, and is probably maxEV anyways. Openshoving 22-66 as well obv.I can see some arguments for tightening/widening the bottom end of that pfr a bit, but it would be close either way. The important thing is just to make sure you drastically narrow your normal pfr range, you'll do a ton better vs this type right away.As for what jackoneill was saying, just because I see someone call a ton of my flop/turn cbets doesn't mean that I'm not 3barreling them as a bluff. I'm just weighting my overall barreling ranges further to value (still barreling my decent equity). If they call 60% from the bb, fold to 25% of cbets, 20% of 2 barrels, that means that they have a TON of marginal hands by the river. A lot of villains will just call down light because they have equity and can improve. By the river, their hand is obv defined and can't improve anymore - so imo you can still find a good amount of folds from this weak of an overall range. Remember that when you bluff 350 into 500, it only needs to work 350/850 - not that often. If the majority of your river betting range there is value, you are going to be doing pretty damn well. Basically I just think it's a big mistake that a lot of players to say "he's a calling station, I'm not bluffing him". 

Remind me that I have to ask you alot about postflop strategy, loving these posts.Yepp I had like 60 bucks on Stars a month ago and refused to deposit more because of the Fulltilt scandal. So I have been working my ass off all the way from the 7 bucks Tourneys to the 100s, I guess I'll see you at the 200s sometime next week =).