also, to add onto the flatting 3bs at short stacks question:finding the specific stack depth that we can't flat certain hands at anymore is going to depend a ton on postflop tendancies too. so i'd just consider how well your hand flops vs a certain 3bet %...if it realizes equity well you can call.the situation is just so infinitely rare that you are playing someone who 3bets 100-250 at 750 stacks with 25% of hands though, and limping will prob be a good option vs that player anyways.
the less likely i think they are to flat the smaller i'll 4b bluff non-ai basically.a 3b of 100-233 at 1400 stx...probably something ranging from 345-420. depending on our hand and villains 5b range, we aren't committing ourselves until a 4b size of like 450-470ish (getting 34$ish equity to call a jam).75s and 98o look totally fine vs that sizing.
How are you reacting vs a player who makes these small 4bets against you? One player does it w/ a polarized range of his best hands & air.Another player does it w/ a polarized range but flats QQ+.
As a standard we 3bet KJ for value. However, against some nits who open a tight range & flat 3bets w/ a tight range I think it can do more harm than good. We basically just end up folding out a lot of their range that our hand does well against. How big of a nit do you think they need to be before we start flatting 20-30bb deep w/ KJo? Do you think we should ever flat KJs instead of 3bet?
Against somebody w/ a 75% opening frequency who 3 barrels over 1/3 of the time what kind of adjustments are you generally making? Obviously we slowplay more & call down wider but how wide? Are you check/calling 3 streets w/ MP-middle kicker most of the time? Check/call flop & C/R turn w/ draws can be a very valuable line vs this player, but he's a smart player & will figure out if we're unbalanced. We don't really want to C/R turn w/ our best hands because he's usually barreling river (almost 90% of the time). Maybe it's worth C/Ring turn w/ some TP or better hands, along w/ some MP hands, & draws. This balances our turn C/R range, avoids us getting bluffed off of MP, & allows us to make profitable semibluffs w/ our draws. I think we probably lose too much value on our TP+ hands to do that but it's a consideration.It also seems kind of spewy check/calling the flop w/ BP but the implied odds of hitting 2 pair are probably worth it.Do you consider tightening your preflop calling range vs this player?He only folds to about 40% of check/raises
How are you reacting vs a player who makes these small 4bets against you? One player does it w/ a polarized range of his best hands & air.Another player does it w/ a polarized range but flats QQ+. player 1: flat the 4bet with KQ/KJ/QQ+. kq/kj def should have better expectation flatting than folding, also flatting these hands makes 4bet bluffing us a ton harder (and probably -ev) since we realize expectation pretty well - think about how gross of a spot this is for his A4o type stuff. player 2: i'd still flat the same range. not sure if i'd make huge adjustments really - QQ-AA are only 18 hand combos for villain so its really a pretty small part of his range. KQ/KJ do even better as flats too.basically, having a flatting range vs frequent non-committing 4bets is important and makes 4bet bluffing for villain a lot more difficult.my answer seems pretty logical to me, but i could be missing something. what do you think?
As a standard we 3bet KJ for value. However, against some nits who open a tight range & flat 3bets w/ a tight range I think it can do more harm than good. We basically just end up folding out a lot of their range that our hand does well against. How big of a nit do you think they need to be before we start flatting 20-30bb deep w/ KJo? Do you think we should ever flat KJs instead of 3bet?eh, i guess if you're playing someone opening only the top 30-35% of hands you'll be getting 4bet shoved on too much and won't really have any fold equity with the 3bet anyways. i think it's pretty rare though that anyone folds QJ/JT/J8s type stuff to a 3bet. even vs a 45% opening range, there's just so much of that range that will usually call a 3bet that we dominate, and we aren't doing bad equity-wise vs a 4bet shoving range. i think the situations are ridic rare though.let's talk about it some though. what are your thoughts?
I think you pretty much covered both. I was def talking about the Limpasaurus Rex type players opening 30-35% or even less like you described so we're on the page there.
Against somebody w/ a 75% opening frequency who 3 barrels over 1/3 of the time what kind of adjustments are you generally making? Obviously we slowplay more & call down wider but how wide? Are you check/calling 3 streets w/ MP-middle kicker most of the time? Check/call flop & C/R turn w/ draws can be a very valuable line vs this player, but he's a smart player & will figure out if we're unbalanced. We don't really want to C/R turn w/ our best hands because he's usually barreling river (almost 90% of the time). Maybe it's worth C/Ring turn w/ some TP or better hands, along w/ some MP hands, & draws. This balances our turn C/R range, avoids us getting bluffed off of MP, & allows us to make profitable semibluffs w/ our draws. I think we probably lose too much value on our TP+ hands to do that but it's a consideration.It also seems kind of spewy check/calling the flop w/ BP but the implied odds of hitting 2 pair are probably worth it.Do you consider tightening your preflop calling range vs this player?He only folds to about 40% of check/raisesif i'm normally playing 60% of hands oop, i can def see tightening to a little less than 55%ish.obviously it depends soo much on our hand, board textures, stack depth. kind of hard to make too many overall generalizations since i'd play so many hands different at different stack depths and board textures.in general tho:if he's calling your c/r that much, i wouldn't slowplay many hands vs him. hes continuing vs a c/r a lot, so your strongest hands should still have better expectation as a c/r than as a flat. plus you can balance this with some hands with decent equity but not strong enought to check/call (97hh on JT3hxx, Q8hh on J92, 98 on 652 - we can only continue on turn 20% of the time w 98). so i'd expect that if he contines vs ur c/r that much, there should be enough runouts where you have enough fold equity to continue your bluffs on turn/rivers - i'd just be careful what hands you c/r with...going to want your hands to have some decent backdoor equity for sure. including some bottom pairs in your c/r semi-bluffing range has to be pretty good too -- cards that improve us should have good implied odds (disguised) - but like you said just hard for us to get to rivers a lot.calling cbets on paired boards with your A/K highs will prob become better to c/r more often since it's so hard to get to river with best hand. c/r or c/shoving 2 barrels with draws becomes way better. i don't think it's necessary to balance this hardly ever, just worry about getting max expectation from you hand. if villain starts calling turn chk/shoves light or w/e, then the best expectation for our tp's and stuff will be check/jamming - not just to be balanced. def just be willing to call off lighter than normal. pay attention to gameflow a lot - lots of players that barrel wide will still hate to barrel air immediately after getting caught bluffing.im rambling anyways. very hand/board/stack dependant like i said. post some hands or some made-up hands at least and we can expand on this if u want.
I really don't think we make more w/ our big hands C/Ring the flop. He's calling our C/R 60% of the time off of a 75% opening range. That's going to contain some weakish/medium strength hands that try to check it down. After he flats the flop C/R if we assume that we win a 2/3 pot bet from him 50% of the time & get his stack 1/3 of the time, then check/calling should win us significantly more chips. This is assuming we are never losing the hand, which obviously isn't the case, but doesn't really matter for the calculations since we lose our stack whether we C/R or C/C. Let's assume he made it 100 preflop, his cbet size is 100, & we C/R to 250:40 times we win the 300 in the pot when he folds: 12,00060 times we win 250 when he continues vs our C/R: 15,00030 times we win 470 (2/3ish turn bet): 14,10020 times we win 680 (his stack = 1500-100-250-470): 13,600 (sometimes this is on the flop & sometimes other street)That's 54,700 chips in expectationNow let's look at if we flat, assuming he 2 barrels 47% & 3 barrels 67%100 times we win 300 (preflop + his cbet): 30,00047 times we win 270 (2/3ish turn bet): 12,69032 times we win 930 (river shove): 29,760That's 72,450 chips in expectation The barreling example is significantly toned down from what his barreling frequencies were over 100 games since 100 games isn't a perfect sample & we somewhat combine it w/ population tendencies.Maybe it's best not to have a C/R range unless our big hands are very vulnerable. What do you think? This makes our entire range harder to barrel and we should make more money with our big hands. If he tones down his barreling frequency to where C/Ring our big hands becomes more profitable then we can re-adjust.
I've had great success flatting OOP & I'm looking to expand my OOP flatting range. I've already talked to Mers about expanding my readless flatting range. My next step is expanding it against a nit who is only 2xing about 40%. I'll obv be 3betting some of these hands but a reasonable range I came up with is:A2+,K5+,K2s+,Q7+,Q3s+,J8+,J5s+,T8+,T6s+,98,96s+,86s+,76sHow does that look for an experimental expanded flatting range vs a 40% raiser?In the past I would be flatting something more like A2+,K7+,K2s+,Q8+,Q4s+,J8+,J7s+,T9,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s but my EV flatting stats suggest I have plenty of wiggle room for expanding my range.
I've had great success flatting OOP & I'm looking to expand my OOP flatting range. I've already talked to Mers about expanding my readless flatting range. My next step is expanding it against a nit who is only 2xing about 40%. I'll obv be 3betting some of these hands but a reasonable range I came up with is:A2+,K5+,K2s+,Q7+,Q3s+,J8+,J5s+,T8+,T6s+,98,96s+,86s+,76sHow does that look for an experimental expanded flatting range vs a 40% raiser?In the past I would be flatting something more like A2+,K7+,K2s+,Q8+,Q4s+,J8+,J7s+,T9,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s but my EV flatting stats suggest I have plenty of wiggle room for expanding my range.looks pretty good to me. i would definitely add a bunch of low suited connectos. 75s 64s type stuff. they should have pretty good expectation against an opening range that doesn't contain many hands that dominate those hands.
also, to add onto the flatting 3bs at short stacks question:finding the specific stack depth that we can't flat certain hands at anymore is going to depend a ton on postflop tendancies too. so i'd just consider how well your hand flops vs a certain 3bet %...if it realizes equity well you can call.the situation is just so infinitely rare that you are playing someone who 3bets 100-250 at 750 stacks with 25% of hands though, and limping will prob be a good option vs that player anyways.
the less likely i think they are to flat the smaller i'll 4b bluff non-ai basically.a 3b of 100-233 at 1400 stx...probably something ranging from 345-420. depending on our hand and villains 5b range, we aren't committing ourselves until a 4b size of like 450-470ish (getting 34$ish equity to call a jam).75s and 98o look totally fine vs that sizing.
How are you reacting vs a player who makes these small 4bets against you? One player does it w/ a polarized range of his best hands & air.Another player does it w/ a polarized range but flats QQ+.
As a standard we 3bet KJ for value. However, against some nits who open a tight range & flat 3bets w/ a tight range I think it can do more harm than good. We basically just end up folding out a lot of their range that our hand does well against. How big of a nit do you think they need to be before we start flatting 20-30bb deep w/ KJo? Do you think we should ever flat KJs instead of 3bet?
Against somebody w/ a 75% opening frequency who 3 barrels over 1/3 of the time what kind of adjustments are you generally making? Obviously we slowplay more & call down wider but how wide? Are you check/calling 3 streets w/ MP-middle kicker most of the time? Check/call flop & C/R turn w/ draws can be a very valuable line vs this player, but he's a smart player & will figure out if we're unbalanced. We don't really want to C/R turn w/ our best hands because he's usually barreling river (almost 90% of the time). Maybe it's worth C/Ring turn w/ some TP or better hands, along w/ some MP hands, & draws. This balances our turn C/R range, avoids us getting bluffed off of MP, & allows us to make profitable semibluffs w/ our draws. I think we probably lose too much value on our TP+ hands to do that but it's a consideration.It also seems kind of spewy check/calling the flop w/ BP but the implied odds of hitting 2 pair are probably worth it.Do you consider tightening your preflop calling range vs this player?He only folds to about 40% of check/raises
How are you reacting vs a player who makes these small 4bets against you? One player does it w/ a polarized range of his best hands & air.Another player does it w/ a polarized range but flats QQ+. player 1: flat the 4bet with KQ/KJ/QQ+. kq/kj def should have better expectation flatting than folding, also flatting these hands makes 4bet bluffing us a ton harder (and probably -ev) since we realize expectation pretty well - think about how gross of a spot this is for his A4o type stuff. player 2: i'd still flat the same range. not sure if i'd make huge adjustments really - QQ-AA are only 18 hand combos for villain so its really a pretty small part of his range. KQ/KJ do even better as flats too.basically, having a flatting range vs frequent non-committing 4bets is important and makes 4bet bluffing for villain a lot more difficult.my answer seems pretty logical to me, but i could be missing something. what do you think?
As a standard we 3bet KJ for value. However, against some nits who open a tight range & flat 3bets w/ a tight range I think it can do more harm than good. We basically just end up folding out a lot of their range that our hand does well against. How big of a nit do you think they need to be before we start flatting 20-30bb deep w/ KJo? Do you think we should ever flat KJs instead of 3bet?eh, i guess if you're playing someone opening only the top 30-35% of hands you'll be getting 4bet shoved on too much and won't really have any fold equity with the 3bet anyways. i think it's pretty rare though that anyone folds QJ/JT/J8s type stuff to a 3bet. even vs a 45% opening range, there's just so much of that range that will usually call a 3bet that we dominate, and we aren't doing bad equity-wise vs a 4bet shoving range. i think the situations are ridic rare though.let's talk about it some though. what are your thoughts?
I think you pretty much covered both. I was def talking about the Limpasaurus Rex type players opening 30-35% or even less like you described so we're on the page there.
Against somebody w/ a 75% opening frequency who 3 barrels over 1/3 of the time what kind of adjustments are you generally making? Obviously we slowplay more & call down wider but how wide? Are you check/calling 3 streets w/ MP-middle kicker most of the time? Check/call flop & C/R turn w/ draws can be a very valuable line vs this player, but he's a smart player & will figure out if we're unbalanced. We don't really want to C/R turn w/ our best hands because he's usually barreling river (almost 90% of the time). Maybe it's worth C/Ring turn w/ some TP or better hands, along w/ some MP hands, & draws. This balances our turn C/R range, avoids us getting bluffed off of MP, & allows us to make profitable semibluffs w/ our draws. I think we probably lose too much value on our TP+ hands to do that but it's a consideration.It also seems kind of spewy check/calling the flop w/ BP but the implied odds of hitting 2 pair are probably worth it.Do you consider tightening your preflop calling range vs this player?He only folds to about 40% of check/raisesif i'm normally playing 60% of hands oop, i can def see tightening to a little less than 55%ish.obviously it depends soo much on our hand, board textures, stack depth. kind of hard to make too many overall generalizations since i'd play so many hands different at different stack depths and board textures.in general tho:if he's calling your c/r that much, i wouldn't slowplay many hands vs him. hes continuing vs a c/r a lot, so your strongest hands should still have better expectation as a c/r than as a flat. plus you can balance this with some hands with decent equity but not strong enought to check/call (97hh on JT3hxx, Q8hh on J92, 98 on 652 - we can only continue on turn 20% of the time w 98). so i'd expect that if he contines vs ur c/r that much, there should be enough runouts where you have enough fold equity to continue your bluffs on turn/rivers - i'd just be careful what hands you c/r with...going to want your hands to have some decent backdoor equity for sure. including some bottom pairs in your c/r semi-bluffing range has to be pretty good too -- cards that improve us should have good implied odds (disguised) - but like you said just hard for us to get to rivers a lot.calling cbets on paired boards with your A/K highs will prob become better to c/r more often since it's so hard to get to river with best hand. c/r or c/shoving 2 barrels with draws becomes way better. i don't think it's necessary to balance this hardly ever, just worry about getting max expectation from you hand. if villain starts calling turn chk/shoves light or w/e, then the best expectation for our tp's and stuff will be check/jamming - not just to be balanced. def just be willing to call off lighter than normal. pay attention to gameflow a lot - lots of players that barrel wide will still hate to barrel air immediately after getting caught bluffing.im rambling anyways. very hand/board/stack dependant like i said. post some hands or some made-up hands at least and we can expand on this if u want.
I really don't think we make more w/ our big hands C/Ring the flop. He's calling our C/R 60% of the time off of a 75% opening range. That's going to contain some weakish/medium strength hands that try to check it down. After he flats the flop C/R if we assume that we win a 2/3 pot bet from him 50% of the time & get his stack 1/3 of the time, then check/calling should win us significantly more chips. This is assuming we are never losing the hand, which obviously isn't the case, but doesn't really matter for the calculations since we lose our stack whether we C/R or C/C. Let's assume he made it 100 preflop, his cbet size is 100, & we C/R to 250:40 times we win the 300 in the pot when he folds: 12,00060 times we win 250 when he continues vs our C/R: 15,00030 times we win 470 (2/3ish turn bet): 14,10020 times we win 680 (his stack = 1500-100-250-470): 13,600 (sometimes this is on the flop & sometimes other street)That's 54,700 chips in expectationNow let's look at if we flat, assuming he 2 barrels 47% & 3 barrels 67%100 times we win 300 (preflop + his cbet): 30,00047 times we win 270 (2/3ish turn bet): 12,69032 times we win 930 (river shove): 29,760That's 72,450 chips in expectation The barreling example is significantly toned down from what his barreling frequencies were over 100 games since 100 games isn't a perfect sample & we somewhat combine it w/ population tendencies.Maybe it's best not to have a C/R range unless our big hands are very vulnerable. What do you think? This makes our entire range harder to barrel and we should make more money with our big hands. If he tones down his barreling frequency to where C/Ring our big hands becomes more profitable then we can re-adjust.
I've had great success flatting OOP & I'm looking to expand my OOP flatting range. I've already talked to Mers about expanding my readless flatting range. My next step is expanding it against a nit who is only 2xing about 40%. I'll obv be 3betting some of these hands but a reasonable range I came up with is:A2+,K5+,K2s+,Q7+,Q3s+,J8+,J5s+,T8+,T6s+,98,96s+,86s+,76sHow does that look for an experimental expanded flatting range vs a 40% raiser?In the past I would be flatting something more like A2+,K7+,K2s+,Q8+,Q4s+,J8+,J7s+,T9,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s but my EV flatting stats suggest I have plenty of wiggle room for expanding my range.
I've had great success flatting OOP & I'm looking to expand my OOP flatting range. I've already talked to Mers about expanding my readless flatting range. My next step is expanding it against a nit who is only 2xing about 40%. I'll obv be 3betting some of these hands but a reasonable range I came up with is:A2+,K5+,K2s+,Q7+,Q3s+,J8+,J5s+,T8+,T6s+,98,96s+,86s+,76sHow does that look for an experimental expanded flatting range vs a 40% raiser?In the past I would be flatting something more like A2+,K7+,K2s+,Q8+,Q4s+,J8+,J7s+,T9,T7s+,96s+,86s+,76s,65s but my EV flatting stats suggest I have plenty of wiggle room for expanding my range.looks pretty good to me. i would definitely add a bunch of low suited connectos. 75s 64s type stuff. they should have pretty good expectation against an opening range that doesn't contain many hands that dominate those hands.
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