in another thread -http://www.husng.com/node/268 -, while commenting his hand, skates says: "the donklead after c/c flop is usually very strong....". i made a new thread because i'd like to hear some answers about this specific betting pattern.
i was kind of surprised when reading skates opinion, i usually see the donk lead on the turn after flat calling the flop as being very polarized. i think it's a spot where you see many bluffs. because when you're very strong and an (average) opponent is betting for you on the flop, what's the point of stealing his leadership on the turn and scaring him off ...? especially knowing a cbet is mostly with air... . you're more likely to get a second street of value if you leave to the opponent a chance to double barrel. by donk leading, you may get value from a second pair wich would not bet the turn, but i think by checking the turn you're still likely to get the same value on the river, or more value if villain hits something.
also, knowing a cbet is mostly with air, what a better spot to bluff than donk leading the turn after calling the flop. sometimes, if i have an aggressive image, and a strong hand, i actually donk lead the turn after flat calling flop, because it looks bluffy...
i'm not sure this betting patter usually means strenght, i'll be interested in hearing more comments from instructors and others about it. it's certainly not a common bet, wich makes it particulary interesting...
I disagree with Skates general statement, but only to an extent.
In the lower levels, I would often see the c/c, lead turn line as a hand that did not want to see and would not call a sizable raise. So often in fact, that I recall Hokiegreg telling me something like "I just raise those lines every time, it's so weak." Obviously this is a little extreme, but I think in the lower stakes Hokie was mostly correct.
As I've moved up to the 110-220 levels and beyond, I've noticed that this line is not only taken a lot less than I ever saw it taken, but when it is taken it is often much stronger. Now, it still can be very weak in my mind, several types of players do this exclusively as a blocking bet/informational bet to "see where they stand" and prevent you from firing a big 2nd barrel, but I would completely disagree with anybody who said something similar to what Hokie says about the higher level games and that line these days.
I just asked Hokie and he basically said it's a wider range than he used to think it was and that he doesn't auto raise it anymore. He also mentioned that doesn't mean he respects the line automatically.
So that's how he feels at this point in time.
Skates is on vacation so he might not get to this for a few days.
thanks for you answer and also for asking hokie. good to know this. i kind of suspected a big difference depending on buy-in.