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chugenemes's picture
chugs's HH, general ramblings and non threadworthy discussion thread

fwiw i'm more than happy with everyone posting here :Pfigured i'd start it off with 2 spots that came up earlier:-if villain is calling 30% hands pre from bb but playing very lagy postflop is it still best to raise 100%? what about if he's calling 40%? is preflop frequencies or postflop tendencies more important for adapting your own preflop frequencies... :S ? ( think that might be a bit vague)is shoving 44 over a minraise 28bb deep against an aggro player who's oppening 92% of buttons optimal? (not random numbers just couldn't be bothered to convert)And somthing else:-can we assume that most abc regs will be open shoving weak aces + low pocket pairs at 18-25bb? if we're confident in this read, what's a good calling range?

mersenneary's picture
"if villain is calling 30%

"if villain is calling 30% hands pre from bb but playing very lagy postflop is it still best to raise 100%? what about if he's calling 40%? is preflop frequencies or postflop tendencies more important for adapting your own preflop frequencies... :S ? ( think that might be a bit vague)"Absolutely. We're making an instant profit with our junk hands if he's playing that few hands OOP. We're printing money, let alone being better than folding :) "is shoving 44 over a minraise 28bb deep against an aggro player who's oppening 92% of buttons optimal? (not random numbers just couldn't be bothered to convert)" Absolutely again, and not even close. It's probably optimal even 35-40bb deep (!) against that opening percentage but some people really don't like taking a small edge in that way. Certainly, though, anything other than jamming 28bb deep vs a 92% opener is really bad. "can we assume that most abc regs will be open shoving weak aces + low pocket pairs at 18-25bb? if we're confident in this read, what's a good calling range?" I don't think this is true at all that deep. I think a rather small percentage of regs have this tendency. I do think though that when people DO openshove 20bb deep, it's not usually going to be monsters - if it's the first time I see it, I'm probably calling it off with KJs, KQ, A7s+, A8o+, 44+, something like that.

ThisWillFitForSure's picture
"Certainly, though, anything

"Certainly, though, anything other than jamming 28bb deep vs a 92% opener is really bad."what pps are you just flatting? i assume u jam 22-88 (99?) but then it gets a bit into a grey-ish areawhat do you think of with pp against certain people try and do a not so obvious commiting 3bet to represent a stronger range and actually make people hero-fold hands that are we flipping against like 25bb deep against a 3x 3bet to 7-7.5bb and then if called jam flops (like a go and go), i do think we have fold equity pre and we avoid a flip sometimes like doing it with 44-66 u can maybe make fold A7o K8s and if u get jammed over u just call bc that was your intention anyway to get it in. thoughts?

mersenneary's picture
By 88 or 99 I'm making a

By 88 or 99 I'm making a non-allin 3bet, probably 99. I'm not a huge fan of the go-and-go play with small pairs. I've had the argument made to me before, but the fact of the matter is that his flop strategy (hit a pair or some equity and then get it in vs your shove) will actually play close to PERFECTLY against your low pair, without him even knowing your cards. So basically, you're allowing him to choose which flops we play for all the chips on, and which chips we don't, and he's going to be correct a lot of the time.For example, let's say he has Q9ss, and you have 44. If you're jamming any flop...A65 - He correctly folds to jam.K95 - He correctly calls the jam.JT6 - He correctly calls the jam. etc etc etc. Sure, occasionally there are flops where he makes an error, but in general, you're just letting him decide which flops we play for 1/3 of the chips on, and which chips we play for all of the chips on. Jamming doesn't let him have that advantage, and while it's true that some opponents will hero fold more against a non-jam 3bet, plenty more will play their speculative hands more often, and that's a disaster with a small pair to get called pre by 87ss. Go-and-gos work much better when your opponent isn't going to play so well on the flop. When you have KJ, for example, your opponent makes a lot more "incorrect" decisions on the flop, by getting it in with dominating holdings. While you can cooler him with sets vs top pair and stuff like that too, he makes a lot fewer incorrect decisions when you have a small pair.Make sense?

ThisWillFitForSure's picture
yah makes sense, but do u use

yah makes sense, but do u use the go and go? i mean 3betting-non-allin with KJ (KT, QJ?) and then obv calling if he shoves to get more FE or to keep speculative hands like TJ against certain people? thinking regs or more inclined to do it against fish?

chugenemes's picture
is 44 still a jam at 28bb if

is 44 still a jam at 28bb if villain is raising 20% limping 60% and he minraises?

mersenneary's picture
Yes, 44 is a jam probably

Yes, 44 is a jam probably down to about 45% minraise, I haven't worked out the math but that's my intuitive sense.And yeah to the prior post, I have a non-allin 3betting range of KQ/KJs (KJ/KT at 20bb vs a lot of people), not c-betting on all flops though (depends on depth/texture/player type)