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Giant_'s picture
too loose?

Is this shove too loose, or was it quite ok?

He was raising a wide range to 100.

I would have shoved with any pocket here + kj+

 

Thx in advance ;-)

 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00+$0.25 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) (t2050)
SB (t950)

Hero's M: 68.33

Preflop: Hero is BB with
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t2050 (All-In), SB calls t850 (All-In)

Flop: (t1900) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t1900) (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1900) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t1900

Results:
SB had A, 5 (one pair, Aces).
Hero had 3, 3 (three of a kind, threes).
Outcome: Hero won t1900

ertbAl's picture
 My first thought was that

 My first thought was that a shove is too loose because we are too deep. (about 50 BB effectivly)
But than I did my calculations and wonderd about them. Because after them its ok too push, but maybe i did something wrong in my math:
Assumptions: Villian Opens: 67% of his Range. He will only your call your push with: 10% (66+, A9s+, KJs+, ATo+)

So he calls your all-in effectively in 10/67*100=14,92% of cases.
>>>>>>>>>(Maybe this is wrong/ can I just divide 2 PokerStove Ranges and get the amount of times he calls in %?)<<<<<<<<<<
 
Then he will fold in: 100-14,92=85,08% of cases.

Your equity against his calling-Range is: 38,05%

The Total Chips-EV of Pushing is: AmtWon when he folds + AmtWon when he calls

AmtWon when he folds: 0,8508*130=110 Chips

AmtWon when he calls: (Chips you win - chips you loose)* number of times this happens >>>>> 0,3805*1900  - 950=-227,05 *14,92%=-33,8758

>>>>>( Maybe 950  is wrong and it should be 1900 as well? I win 1900*x from the pot, but can i actually loose more as the amount I put in, here 950??)<<<<<

So you win 130 chips if he folds (what will happen about 85% of times) and you will loose 227 chips if he calls (what will happen about 15% of times).
Overall this leads to a plus EV-Move of: 110-33,8458=76,14 chips.
Of course are my assumptions questionable, but I am still kind of surprised, that this move is so +EV. Even if you say he will never fold and will call his 67% range you will make 15 chips. Or if he just calls a range including any A, any pair, K7o you will make 40 chips.
So this move is could be unexploitable.
Well once again, maybe my calculations are all wrong and I did a mistake.
 
P.S.: I'm a new member and don't know if user to user discussion is wanted in this forum. So just give a quick note about that. And if some guy with solid math skills can look over this calculations, that would be cool.
And maybe I can make a request about a vid going deeper in the discussion about reraise shoving early with small pockets and hands like A3o, K8o against good opponents, where you are glad to take every unexploitable spot.
Hope this helps a bit and thx a lot,  ertbal
 

jackoneill's picture
Well, your EV calculations

Well, your EV calculations against that range look ok to me at first sight - but I could be wrong, I'm too tired after playing the entire night.
However, this neither unexploitable nor the most +EV line you can take and there's just no reason to do that early in the match, especially against a huge donkey.
You're risking a lot of chips for just a small edge, so you do not only limit your ROI against the guy to whatever the EV of this move is, it's also very high variance, so you need a higher bankroll, so that's not something I'd recommend at the micro stakes.
I think long-term it'd be better for you to play a more conservative style which has a lower variance, so you have less swings and can also move up faster to the $10's and $20's - games are still very soft at the $30's and higher, so IMO you should really try to play a low-variance style so you can move up quickly.
I'm only a member since about three months now, and before I joined I also tried to chase every single edge, shove very wide pre-flop or get all-in quickly post-flop with any kind of draw etc., but things went really bad for me, session swings of 15+ buy-ins were normal and in the end I had a 50+ buy-in downswing which threw me from the $100's back to the $20's.  That's when I cashed out the rest of my roll and started again from scratch by watching all these excellent videos and learning about the game.
When I first started to watch videos here, I realized that most of the coaches play a lot more passively than I did before.  I implemented this into my game and made it back to the $100's within three months.
I'd just fold 33 here and wait for a better spot - with 33, you're basically not beating very much, you have a coinflip against most overcard-type hands and you're way behind against higher pairs.  I don't care about fold-equity that much here, against such a huge donkey I want to get my money in with a hand that has a decent equity against his calling range - definitely 88+ and AJ+, sometimes 77 and KQs / ATs.
Jack


smf's picture
checked ev calcs and made some corrections

Hey ertbal, I'm new here aswell but I looked over your EV-calcs to practice a bit... and I think you made a mistake with the EV(call) formula:
AmtWon when he calls: (Chips you win - chips you loose)* number of times this happens >>>>> 0,3805*1900  - 950=-227,05 *14,92%=-33,8758
I think the chip amounts here are wrong and you forgot villains equity on the losing chips. Two ways to solve EV(call), using your ranges:
EV(call)=(our equity * what we win) - (villains equity * what we lose)

= [0,3805*(30+100+850)] - [0,6195*(850)] = -153,685.
EV(call)=

(our equity * total pot) – cost of our call

= [0,3805* (30+100+850+850)] - 850 =-153,685.
The rest of your calculations seem correct to me :)
P.S : wtf calculating EV on saturday night ^^

ertbAl's picture
First: There is nothing you

First: There is nothing you can say against solving some EV Calculations at any time. Just makes you more sexy, because girls (boys) are drawn to very smart guys, who can stay at home and don't have to party all the time.  Obviously, isn't it? :P *lol*
And what puzzles me about your solution is, that the amounts do not add up to 1900, which should be the pot size. And therefor the first solution is not equal to the second, or??
We win 30+100+850 but we will lose 950. So this should be [0,3805*(30+100+850)] - [0,6195*(950)]=-215,635
And this maybe should be (our equity * total pot) – cost of our call>>> 0,3805*1900-950=-227,05
But I still have to weight this solution with the number of times it happens, hereabout 15% of time.
Now I am totally confused...
Anyone any suggestions?
 
 

smf's picture
Aah yes, you are right

Aah yes, you are right I messed up what we lose; it's 950 not 850. Also it seems like the HH converter doesn't include the blinds(?). The total potsize in the converter is = 950*2=1900, when I think it should be 1930.  Anyway now our formulas become :
With potsize 1930( here I added blinds):
EV(shove-call) = (our equity * what we win) - (villains equity * what we lose)
=[0,3805*(30+100+850)] - [0,6195*(950)] =-215,635
EV(shove-call) = (our equity * total pot) - cost of our shove
= (0,3805*(30+100+950+850) - 950 = -215,635.
And with potsize 1900 we just remove the blinds out of both equations and get -227,05, and now I finally think we got it ^^.
 

ertbAl's picture
So this stays the

So this stays the same?
-227,05 *14,92%=-33,8758

And overall it still will be (0,8508*130) - 0,1492*227,05= 76,14 chips.
So a (big) +EV spot.

smf's picture
Hehe yes it stays the same,

Hehe yes it stays the same, sorry for correcting you when you were right all along :). Still don't understand why the pot only sums up to 1900 though.