hello,
One hand here where I think I adjust poorly against a wide 3betting villain at the early levels of the normal speed.
I have under 20 hands aginst this guy; I remember this was his 3rd or 4th 3bet, 2nd in a row. I debated just putting him in at this point, which I think is a +EV move given how often he'll fold and how well we do against his calling range.
I don't have any postflop reads but I'm in position so I thought I could call profitably. On the flop I think my shove is really marginal because I don't know what he's betting with and I'm not folding overpairs.
I think the simplest way to play this hand is to get it in preflop, but calling might be okay as well? As played, it's a semi-close fold unless we think he's potleading with 100% of his 3betting range on the flop.
I'd rather get it in pre.
I don't like the flop shove because if villain is thinking, he knows you're likely bluffing there so he won't fold any pair whatsoever. If villain is not thinking, then he'll just call off his stack with any pair anyway because well...he's dumb hah. Either way, you're getting called with almost any pair.
But is it even profitable to call this pf...? Wouldn't the correct order be to rather shove>fold>call than shove>call>fold? But yeah I'm shoving this all day, and with those dynamics probably worse too.
Against a fish, I think flat > shove > fold - if the guy is 3betting wide enough and I think I have an edge over the guy post-flop, then I flat this all day long - no need to get it in pre on a coinflip if I can outplay the guy on the flop.
However, I wouldn't make any moves on this board to a PSB - the guy is just not going to believe you that you have any piece of this board, he won't fold any pair and may even call you with AK. If he bet smaller, like 200-ish, then I'd flat and try to take it on the turn - imo flat'ing looks a lot stronger on this flop than shoving, but this PSB is just too big to float him.
Jack
Flatting pre is fine,obv shoving is not a mistake,but i prefer to call with that kind of hand,i think also shoving flop is fine,is one of yours flop and u got decent equity,if he 3bet pre stuff like KJ u can lay down a lot of hands(and that potopen doesn't seem strong to me),another time,folding is not a mistake,but i prefer to shove
I'm probably not shoving pre unless I think villain is getting in with A8s. I'll certainly flat sometimes, and to be honest, I don't think a fold is bad. I think you have to estimate a 3bet range. Given that this is the 2nd 3bet in a row and villain isn't super lag as a 3bettor, calling seems appropriate.
On the flop, it really depends how you've been playing post-flop. I think call, with intention of calling a turn jam and checking back if he checks is usually better vs. someone who 3bets often and will pot it on the flop. Folding is fine too. The reason I say call instead of jam is that everything that beats you still gets it in, AK/AQ will slow down on the turn if you flat, and all of the hands you already beat will most likely ship as a bluff on lots of turns. Basically the same hands get it in except for a handful that beat you and lots more that don't beat you.
I think that most villains are going to have a near-perfect (minus some low pocket pairs) calling range against our AJss here if we shove over his 3bet. In other words, I think that we will force out almost all of the worse hands and still get called by the better ones.
On the flop I agree with Skates that I think flat calling and planning to call a turn shove is optimal for the same reasons. I don't think that a shove is bad by any means, but I don't think its the best play.