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Tightfish's picture
HTHU 3.5s - T4o 3bet spot

Hi, is this hand played correctly?

SB: 91/24, limp/fold: 83

http://www.handconverter.com/hands/2486467

FLOP: I bet small to induce spew, so raise I would definitely call.

TURN: There is no many hands I can get value from, so Im gonna check/call.

RIVER: He bets small, but there is almost nothing I can beat, so I have to lay it down.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
i think the mistake is made

i think the mistake is made preflop. just check your option with a crap hand and be thankful villain lets you realize your equity. don´t isoraise because you can, do it with a proper hand. sure, you can have a wide value range to iso rase, but T4o is complete crap. it flops terribly and your T is often dominated. if you iso raise, just raise to 60. it usually does the same job, but you keep the pot a little smaller. keep in mind: you are OOP and should prefer to play smaller pots than IP, especially with holdings like T4o, which against a minraise should be folded most of the time.

 

as played: you´re getting good odds to call with your pair of tens, but you will lose against most Tx, there also are some 2pairs out there, plus some straights and the chance of a backdoor flush. the small sizing is a little suspicious as well, he probably wants to milk you. i think the fold is fine.

AGT89's picture
Looking at the hand quickly I

Looking at the hand quickly I think it's too spewy, on this level you dont need to make big moves or crazy stuff, you just have to play more straight forward, raising with any two cards over his limp its too wide, even if some pro players tell you it's profitable you need a really good skills postflop.

Now as played I dont think its a good idea to bet small on the flop, you are playing against a passive opponent, go for value because he only knows to call rather than get agressive with a bluff raise or something. Against this players TP without kicker its pretty much a bluffcacther because when they raise your cbet you are fucked most of the time. So I would bet/fold bigger and continue from that.

Hello, when I put my key, and appears a start and I can not change, this is my key Product ID D9AA-6C30-93A3-9985-859D-2896-B3DE-4CF3. What can I do?

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
FLOP: I bet small to induce

FLOP: I bet small to induce spew, so raise I would definitely call.

 

you don´t induce spew here, you induce a float usually. even if villain completely misses, but he shouldn´t on that board, it hits his limping range rather well. he will have a lot of top pairs, second pairs, gutshots, openenders, maybe even two pair OTF. you might even think about going for a check raise here.

Tightfish's picture
Guys thanks for reply, BUT Im

Guys thanks for reply, BUT Im absolutely satisfied with izo raise PF. Firstly I will not izo any two. I will izo only junk hands like 72o as a bluff, and pretty good hands for value, something like J9+. Hands like 56, T6 or K2 I will check. I have this great concept from coffeeyay videos, and It works pretty well, I see a lot of folds pre flop and also on the flop. And this situation is extremely EV+ because he limp/fold  83%. You cannot say that check is more EV+ than izo because it certainly doesnt.

 

Good point is to bet more on the flop, thanks guys.

AGT89's picture
Yeah I know coffeyay play,

Yeah I know coffeyay play, and ofc it's +EV iso anytwocards if he is limp-folding 80% of the time, if you raise to 60 you need 50% succes, so its insta profit.

But thats not all you have to consider, I would go a little bit deeper on the analysis, I would say becarefull playing this junk hands OOP because you need a good play postflop and I know many players fail on this and end up loosing a ton the times they get called. What I mean by this is I would not recomend this type of plays to players who are learning a solid game, and I just want to advice you becarefull overdoing this.

Hello, when I put my key, and appears a start and I can not change, this is my key Product ID D9AA-6C30-93A3-9985-859D-2896-B3DE-4CF3. What can I do?

Tightfish's picture
If villain calls izoraise, I

If villain calls izoraise, I will go almost always ~1/3 pot size cbet and, as I can see, they really fold much more than  ~ 20%. If they call I´ll give up. So dont worry about it :)

AGT89's picture
Ye ye, I said they limp-fold

Ye ye, I said they limp-fold 80% !

So what do you think about raising anytwocards to 3bbs and Cbet half pot (I like much more half pot OOP, I think I have slightly more fold equity and it has to work 33%, while the 1/3 cbet has to work 27% and to me thats not a big difference) every time an unknown player limps? This should be a profitable strategy right?

I have been nitting a little bit (like cog dissonance) and Im thinking on implementing this on mine game.

Hello, when I put my key, and appears a start and I can not change, this is my key Product ID D9AA-6C30-93A3-9985-859D-2896-B3DE-4CF3. What can I do?

Tightfish's picture
I dont think its good idea to

I dont think its good idea to izo ATC, just because villain can adapt himself and he will limp/raise you and he will call your izo wider. Next, I dont think half pot cbet is better than 1/3 cbet. Many villains play fit or fold in 3bet or izo spots. Again, coffeeyay talks about this stuff in his video, so check it if you want.

Btw when you cbet half pot you need 25% fold equity

AGT89's picture
Well I mean the very fisrt

Well I mean the very fisrt hand of the match as std play, for example second hand and villain limps, following that type of reasonings best option then is iso with ATC.

And about the 25% succes, I can guarantee you are wrong, it's 33% succes, look --> Minraise preflop and opponent flat, now Cbet Im investing 40 chips to win 120, so 40/120 = 0.33

Hello, when I put my key, and appears a start and I can not change, this is my key Product ID D9AA-6C30-93A3-9985-859D-2896-B3DE-4CF3. What can I do?

Tightfish's picture
Yeah you are right, Im

Yeah you are right, Im sometimes confused in math, sorry.

adam25185's picture
Hi there tightfish First

Hi there tightfish

First point: be very careful punishing limps with T4o. If your opponent doesn't fold, you're in a sticky situation, with a hand that flops terribly. It's not that I would never punish with T4o here, but only where the gameflow strongly indicated I would get a fold. Don't overuse limp-punishing.

On the flop: You need to bet larger here. We have a vulnerable top pair, so a fold is not a bad result. I would bet at least 90 chips here.

On the turn: The same point applies. Bet at least 180 chips to protect your hand/get value. I don't see how you can say "there aren't many hands I can get value from". Any pair or any draw can call, so there are loads of hands we can get value from.

On the river: Second pair is just good far too often for us to fold to 80 chips here. Even if we are good only 18% of the time, it's a call. Personally, I would expect we are good most of the time here.

Hope this helps.

 

Tightfish's picture
"Personally, I would expect

"Personally, I would expect we are good most of the time here."

Lets talk about range he can call flop with: Tx, 5x, 8x, , A high, Overs, J9, Q9, 97, 96, 76, 74. If you think he will bet river with 8x or A high, then call is good. Imo he will checkback his 8x, 5x, A high. I really dont see nothing we can beat. Secondly I dont think he is bluffing with that sizing. 

I beat maybe something like KJ, odds are maybe fine to call, but "we are good most of the time" its too optimistic.

I didnt cbet turn because of his tight limp/fold stat, but there are still lot of 8x hands he can call with, so yeah, barrel is good idea.

4 card brett's picture
preflop:-while a raise is

preflop:-

while a raise is fine when villain limp folds so much i think this hand is better to check behind. i reason that while raising ATC is fine i don't want villain to stop folding so i don't want to raise every single limp there fore i would check back junk hands like this , even worse would be going to showdown with this hand and showing the villain that i am raising his limps with junk

 

flop

as played i would Cbet more than half pot for value,  a passive villain like this is unlikely to spew shove on the flop so don't try to induce passive players induce the aggressive maniacs, so i would bet for value here prob 50-60% of pot.

if limped preflop i would bet pot with top pair weak kicker on limped pot and expect to take it down alot

turn

as played i would not check here, checking gives you the least amount of information, as played i would bet half pot i still think top pair is in front v a fishy villain most fish raise top pair on the flop. villain could have flush draw hearts straight draw 7 or 1 pair or 2 pair and bet when we check, these days with almost everyone cbetting alot of villains will float and believe that 1 pair is good  but the board is getting draw heavy i want to bet to make him pay to chase. but since you checked i think you can only call his bet

if limped pre and called on flop i would half pot bet

oh and our 4 is a straight draw blocker so we can bet the turn i think

 

river

as played i am now check calling (unless villain shoves) our hand is a great bluff catcher now and i would call the small bet (i would also note this hand and what villain called our limp raise with)we still beat any 7 busted straight draw or any non Q pair (obv alot of tens beat us but i would of expected to be raised by top pair on flop)

 

if limped pre i would also check call as a bluff catch, betting here leaves us open to jam bluffs which we cannot call