when you donkbet 54 and get in vs the typical stacking off range on a K32hh board, you are going to be WAY behind. c/c is a fine option, so clearly the best option here imo isn't to donk/3bet. when you donkbet 89 on K76 you are crushed by a range that stacks off vs you on the flop. same for Q87 board. do you see this?donkbetting works best when you are playing someone who doesnt cbet wide (a wide cbet range would make most of these hands better to c/r semibluff to get value from fe).donkbet hands that dont fair well c/c for more than 1 street:like T8 on K76T6 on Q87JThh on 7h 5x 2x98 on 652all of these hands have decent equity, but get barreled off on a ton of turns - when we do hit turns, it's going to be pretty hard to get much value in some situations bc villains wont barrel wide typically (esp JT, 98 examples)vs a nitty cbettor, bet/3bet hands that are too strong to check/call a cbet with - but vs a nitty cbettor we can expect that the range they continue vs a donkbet with will be about as tight or possibly even wider than their normal cbet range on a relatively wet board. also by donkbetting, we don't give free equity to the 50% or so of his range that he typically checks back.good bet/3bet hands vs a nitty cbettor would be:KThh on 9h 8h 4xQ6hh on 9h 8h 4xQJ on T92 (not too deep tho, prob best to donk/call a raise then)it's complicated. each hand is unique and depends on stack sizes, hand ranges, and comparing the expectation of all of our different options. basically:1) don't worry about donkbetting vs someone who cbets wide2) dont donk/3bet hands that get crushed by villains stack off range vs your 3bet - it's likely you had a much better option in either c/c or c/r. 

ok so new topic... we call a 3b pre... at around 20bbs blinds are 10/20 Im probably calling a 3b with a range of : 89s, 8Ts, 9T+, j9, JT,Q9s+, QT QJ, K9s+, KTo KJo.... how does this look to you?i really don't expect many players to be 3betting wide at all at 20bbs. if you are getting non-all in 3bet wide enough for these hands to be calls, i would just limp them pre and call a raise. same if you are getting 3bet shoved on a lot (except for KJ/KT which would mr/call...maybe a little wider too depending on frequency). very very rare that someone is non-ai 3betting that much at this stack depth though.Im reshipping 22-AA (obv the higher pairs may not b all in) ... shipping A7s+ and A8o+ KQ +KJs how does this look to you?i'd be openshoving 22-55 as a standard (minraising 44/55 if i'm getting 3bet a lot). rest of your range looks fine when facing a non-ai 3bet readless. if villain's 3b size isn't committing, i'd flat KK/AA instead of jamming.Now what should i be doing with my A2-A6? just open folding as it doesnt flop well?.. trying to think what has the best expectation.. obv if im getting 3b wide then A2 becomes a 4b jam, but im saying as a standard readless?as a standard readless we are raising our button like 70%ish pre, since the average player doesn't 3bet/jam us much 20 deep! so open folding is totally absurd. consider a few things:1) we have fold equity with our preflop raise2) we get 3bet slightly less often when we have an ace bc it makes it less likely villain has AX combos.3) we will have fold equity with our cbets postflop. so def raising lots of hands still, K2o etc. we don't need to flop well as the pfr - it's very different than what we need to consider for our oop ranges.if you are playing a villain that flats a ton and is totally out of control postflop, it is true that A2-A6 will have poor expectation as they flop poorly (and that matters vs this partiuclar opponent). against someone this out of line, you can just jam these hands up to 20bb deep. considering this player calls jams even at 20bb stx with hands we beat, openshoving should have decent expectation.Also when opponent bets harrd on say an T high flop and i have T8 im more than happy Getting it in because im assuming its 2 overs and they try to just overbet you out of the pot... im usually right in these spots... I know obv board texture has alot to do with it but for arguments sake lets just say its a dry T high board.What when it looks like a very valuey kinda bet on a T high board with T8? shud i just b chking or calling and reevaluating? or am i just GII?what does "bets hard mean"?if you think villain will continue vs a c/r with a lot of "overs" and weaker holdings than T8, then c/r should have better expectation than c/c. it's probably fine vs an overbet, i don't expect that type player to barrel turns very light anyways once you flat. i think it's a pretty huge assumption to think villain just has overs though.facing a normal sized cbet against an unknown, i would just c/c in this spot (c/r JT+). people don't stack off very wide on dry boards, and we arent doing great vs the typical range that gets in vs us. anyways, c/r and c/c are both almost always going to be +ev - just need to figure out which is maxEV. most villain's continue pretty nitty on dry boards vs a c/r, and we are crushed by most of what they will stack off with. if you feel villain is a bit spewy, or you have some kind of gameflow/dynamic that might encourage villain to play back or stack off a bit wide - then c/r T8 here becomes way better.for example, against a thinking player who knows me a bit - they are going to know this is a board i would c/r bluff on a fair amount since they should miss it a lot. this means they should be skeptical of my c/r, so i would be much more inclined to c/r T8o vs this player. given this dynamic, that means when i c/c i need to be prepared to call off pretty damn light since he should be barreling my weak flatting range v wide.

K7: when we valuebet we need to beat 50% of the hands that call us, otherwise we are just vtowning ourselves :). your size looks good vs an unknown to get called pretty light, but i still think villain is going to have too much better hands/air for a vbet to be good - also, i'm worried that your small size will induce shoves from missed straight draws since you look pretty weak. also, you have a 7 here so it makes it less likely villain has one - and villain can def have pretty much any other piece of this board as well. in short, i would check :) but i would bet 88/99 since it's a little more likely villain has a 7 (so basically i think it's close)J8: looks good. people don't cbet this board very wide, so i'd actually expect a lot of his cbetting range to be able to continue anyways. people dont barrel these boards v wide as bluffs or for thin value either, so even vs a wider cbet range c/r should still maximize value. sucks when you slowplay here and some action-killing card comes on the turn and shuts down action from certian hands that villain would ahve stacked off with on the flop vs a c/r! like villain's KQ if he turn is the 3d or something.don't worry about it if villain thinks your c/r is strong here. even if they nit up their range a little bit, there are still a bunch of hands that are never folding to a c/r here.   

QJ:what is your thought process on the flop? floating at this stack depth (or any stack depth) with this particular hand is really bad imo.

Yea it did feel wrong, but bk door straight draw + overs, also the fact that i think that overcards are a big part oof his range here ment that i thought i cud outplay him on turn+riv.  But i dont think chk/calling is my standard here but thats why i put this hand up. What range of hands are you chk/calling on this board?his cbet size being so big reps a relatively strong range imo, one that QJ is doing poorly against. there aren't a lot of turn cards we continue very well on, unless villain is shutting down a lot - and I don't expect that given preflop 3b + flop cb size. like if were 100bb deep i would think this is v bad for these reasons, so 25 deep starting it's significantly worse imo. honestly given the cbet size and stack depth behind, i wouldn't have a flatting range here. i'd jam all draws, 7X to protect, and better value hands. what point is there in flatting and letting him realize equity well at such a short stack depth? even if he has AK hands (overs) he should be bet/calling our jams bc he is committed vs so many draws in our range, so it's not like flatting maximizes value from those hands - it just allows them to play even more correctly.

In terms of the 3b question: My range is too wide there obviously? so your raise/folding 89s at 20bbs to a 3b? maybe im flatting 3bs in position pre way too wide here... can u give me a range of hands i should be flatting please?my main point was that if a lot of the bottom of your range is correct to call a 3bet with 20bb deep (their 3bet range is wide enough), then we should be limping to limp/call instead - will def have better expectation.

Q7: i mean A8o is 49% vs you here, so it's not like it's some huge accomplishment in getting it to call. i like it vs a thinking player that realizes we would never have a non-all in c/r bluffing range here - a thinking player would tend to view a chk/shove as drawier/weaker and call lighter than a small c/r bc of this.vs unknowns/fish: they will make a lot bigger mistakes vs a non-all in c/r to 190 or so here. let them call your c/r with hands that would have otherwise folded to a chk/shove - any turn card other than a 4/8/9 is safe enough for us to continue with a turn jam at that point (so we only get a bad turn about 25% of the time when flatted).Q4: lead the flop. don't let your opponent check back his air so often in limped pots and realize his free 20% equity or w/e it is. allowing them to get that free equity (in spots where we have a lot of flop fold equity) really adds up over the long term. it's not like people are that bluffy multiple streets limped anyways, and even if they are we are going to only improve about 35% of the time so we'd get barreled off too often anyways. the times he has KX, we might as well just lead the flop the hand should play out relatively the same anyway.lead more limped. very important.65: definitely fold to c/rthe big problem here is that you are being optimistic about how many outs you have. a bunch of villains range contains blockers to your outs - 89, T9, 86 type stuff. sure, we are committed to call a jam if villain turns A8 face up. and we are ahead of K9 type stuff - but against villains full range we aren't really doing that well.pokerstove some ranges here and i think you'll see this pretty clearly.J9:i think your tp+kicker is definitely strong enough to c/r the flop. it's a board texture where he will have a bunch of hands that will continue vs a c/r that you beat (but hands that will check back turns unimproved a lot) - 8X, QT type gutshots, T9/97, 6X etc. as played, definitely lead the turn. this is not a turn most villains barrel as a bluff much on at all, and it's also a turn that all the hands i listed above will check back to get to a cheaper showdown.so lead the turn and maximize value vs those hands. even if it appears slightly face up to your opponent it doesnt matter and they won't fold these hands nearly often enough to make checking a better option.K4:ya hits typical oop calling range pretty hard. i like checking back the flop a lot.KJ:jamming the flop folds out a ton of hands we beat. i like a bigger size here, but there's no point in going to big. i mean if we bet t150 here and the turn is a club it's pretty damn easy for us to comfortably c/f at that point - so why narrow viillains stack off range so much with a huge flop bet?AQ: ya i'd barrel off here readless, as long as river is a decent card not too connected to that lower part of the board. 96:i mean its ok if he's cbetting really wide so you have tons of fold equity, but i think that's usually not the case on average - so c/c will be better.definitely depends a lot on his cbet range. also if he's raising wide enough pre, like 70%, i'd 3bet shove pre.J8:looks ok. nh

Around 15-17bbs deep im always flatting hands like JT,QJ to a min/r because they flop so well... should i be 3b jamming these hands vs a wider opener or is flatting going to be almost always best?if villain is raising wide enough pre at this stack depth, 80%+ or so, pretty much every hand we would normally flat oop will have better expectation as a 3bet shove.so with these hands being some of the stronger hands in our flatting range, probably down to about a 70% pfr they will be best as 3bet shoves. something like that.

Ok so just a general strategy check... Vs pepople calling alot from the bb and not folding to many cbets, i tend to widen my limping range to alot of hands and just stab tons of flops... is a better line to take vs this type of player to just keep raising lots of buttons and just barrel off on tons of boards?  Also around 14bbs deep i HATE raise folding hands like 9Ts or even JTo.. so iv been limping them vs a somewhat aggro player to avoid getting 3b and having to fold them... is this ok? At what stack are you calling a 3b jam with 9T, JT? im open jamming JT for around 12bbs, is open jamming it at 13bbs a mistake?vs wide callers oop: narrow pfr raising range to 60-70%ish, limp some borderline hands if they aren't raising your limps wide. barrel an equity-heavy range, and good boards to bluff (ones that villain oop range misses a lot, AXX boards etc).limping T9s 14bb deep vs an aggro player is def good. don't hate raise/folding if villain is flatting a lot oop, but not 3betting much though - it flops really well.i'm never calling a 3bet jam with T9/JT. the stack depth we would be raise/calling those hands vs really anyone are stack depths we should just be openshoving those hands at anyways - 10 or 11bb deep.yes limping or raise/folding JT 13 deep is almost certainly better. depending on villains oop tendancies, i would be looking for a different option than openjamming 12 deep as well - limping a lot, most of the hands that jam our limp here are calling openshoves anyways.  

Yo Hokie, sorry to pile up the questions on you like this! Basically i was reading thru the skype chat that we had abotu playing our range and not our hand, and you said on a QT7hh board, we should be checking back A/K high... i dont think i actually am chking back A/K high... im V aggro in general in position and am cbetting a really high % of boards... apart from maybe like 789ss type of boards, but sometimes if i feel im playing a nittier opponent post flop im still cbetting... So basically should i be checking back my high card type stuff on wet boards?it depends on our opponents oop calling range. the averag eplayers oop calling range doesn't have much pure air on a QT7hh board, not much at all. so i'd really just cbet this board vs someone who is calling basically atc oop.even if someone is "being nitty" they just have so many hands still on this board that are never folding. boards like this, J95hh, etc - they really aren't much different than a 987sss board.don't try to play a style, i.e. "being aggro". just make optimal decisions. optimal decisions will usually lead you to being pretty aggressive in general, but adjusting to nittier/more passive vs the correct player types. What type of hands should i not be cbetting with on wet boards? like im always cbetting A high irrelevant of the board unless its like a ridic wet board obv... I assume the best boards to cbet on are boards that will have alot of good turn barreling cards.. eg 35Q or somethign liek that... but even on this board is there ever a spot that i shouldnt be cbetting? what if im playing a reg who i know is taking note of this dry board and expects a cbet? when i think im playing someone like this, i actually tend to check back on this kind of board because i expect to get chk/r really light.. how would i adjust to this?just cbet value/draws. check back marginal showdown value and total air. Q53 is usually a good board to cbet with atc for sure. i would have a check back range of marginal sd value vs someone who c/r my cbet wide though - 3X, 44/22, A/K high. Also what kind of boards should i be betting bigger than half pot on? like 3/4 pot on drawy boards with top pair right? eg TJ on a T78ss board? most of the boards i mentioned above that are bad to cbet our air/marginal sd value on are going to be great boards to increase our cbet size on (bc we don't expect villain to fold much)your example is fine.Also in terms of barreling, im kind of thinking about this spot a bit.. bear with me here while i try to explain it the best i can (this will probs be my last question of the month apart from maybe a few HH, so i dont overload u coz i realise its quite a bit... Ok, so we have QJ on a J 7 3 board... we cbet, and opponent flats, turn is K.  Now this is a PERFECT barreling card for if i was bluffing, so vs a reg who knows this i love life coz im gona get called down light, but vs a fish who i expect a turn barrel to work a huge % of the time, what do i do when i actually dont want them to fold.. does that make sense.. so basically when i have a strong hand, but the board pans out perfect for 3 barrel bluffs.  Its great vs a thinking player coz they know what i could be up to, but vs a fish how do i keep him in and extract max value out of weaker hands?i'd barrel the turn half pot and instead of jamming rivers or w/e like we would vs a reg (depending on the river ofc), i'd bet a smaller value size if i think villain will be folding way too much to a jam. Also is it ever right to check back say top pair for deception and enable us to get basically stacks from 2nd pair etc on later streets?if you raise AX pre and flop is A99, if im playing a fish i'd be checking back a lot to allow them to pick up something. that type stuff.

Are you ever folding the follwing hands preflop, and can i have some examples of when? KJsKJoKQoKQsA7sfolding KJ to an overbet shove 25 deepfolding A7s to an overbet shove 25 deepfolding all of them to an openshove 25 deepso no, not folding them much.

T7:i would just cbet t30 here to protect equity, and to not check back and have to face turn/river leads from total air or anythign. it's a flop where we don't really get value from anythign with a cbet, but villain should def still have 30% at least of total air for a cbet to be good. if i check back, im def stabbing a lot of turns when checked to.if you checked back here as your standard, i wouldn't hate it. it's close imo.AA:looks good to me. you will get called by a decent amount more than just 6X combos here.Q5: just c/f the turn. A hits villains check back range really hard, i don't expect many folds when we bet here KT: we arent getting A high to fold the turn when we lead, so i dont see the point in turning sd value into a bluff - or vtowning ourselves into a bunch of AX/better hands. just check/reevluate.Q2: i think it's fine given your read on his 3bet range. it's pretty hard for him to have much here. i wouldn't do this wiht like 76 though, as we are behind a ton of flush draw combos. would def just fold Q2o pre though! will get to your theory questions  a little later

Ok, basically once iv played someone for 60+ hands, I start to make mmassive adjustments, like if they are opening 70%+ I'm just 3b jamming a2o 25 bbs deep, and I'm if opponent is spewey I'm getting called by all the kj, qj, kt type stuff and I feel because of this the varience is killing me!!!ya, your equity is never going to be great when called - but you aren't 3bet shoving w A2o under those conditions bc you are pwning his calling range. you are jamming bc u have lots of fe, and you do. so shove.

Q5:just cb like 35% of the pot, it accomplishes the same thing at this stack depth - folds out his total air, but doesn't risk an unncessary amt of chips at short eff stx. after your cbet, its just a pot odds calc along with what u think his range is. you have to be right on your call 275/790 or about 33%. so plug in you Q5 in stove vs whatever you think villain's (or avg villain's) chk/jamming range is and if it's >33% then call. a smaller cbet size makes you less committed to continue vs a c/r as well.

So opponent limps... i chk back... what kind of boards should i be leading oop in a limped pot with air?boards that a lot of villains range misses. boards where you have decent equity/backdoor equity. boards you can barrel with equity and will have lots of runouts that give villain a hard time.examples (weak limping range from villain, or vs unknown):these are all good boards to stab readless imoK72238AK2KQ322923Tthat type stuff. pretty board question though, ask more if that's not what you're looking for for an answer

J9:i think your tp+kicker is definitely strong enough to c/r the flop. it's a board texture where he will have a bunch of hands that will continue vs a c/r that you beat (but hands that will check back turns unimproved a lot) - 8X, QT type gutshots, T9/97, 6X etcSo what kind of boards should i be chk calling on? EG J24, J 4 6 type boards?ya, boards where villain has less total hand combos that can continue vs a c/r (like the ones you listed). i think ur on the right track there.