Discussion Thread for Readless Ranges: What to do 20bb Deep From the Big Blind Against an Unknown Opponent

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mersenneary's picture
mersenneary
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pocaja's picture
pocaja
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i'm using propokertool to

i'm using propokertool to play with ranges.

In the exemple of this article the calling range for a 3-bet shove is: A5+, A3s+, KTo+, K9s+, QTs+

What about QJo? I think is a reasonable hand to add.

 

mersenneary's picture
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Definitely, seems reasonable.

Definitely, seems reasonable. The reason why I included QTs but not QJo is partially because QJo is 3x as many combinations, and I really just wanted to encapsulate the idea of "will make a few light calls". But QJo is definitely a reasonable addition.

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"The expectation from jamming

"The expectation from jamming J8s goes all the way up to +0.5bb from the start of the hand, surely better than the expectation from flat calling." for a 100% minraiser. What minraise frequency do you need to observe to 3bet jam the following hands instead of flatting? JTs, J9s, J8s, J7s, T9s, T8s, T7s, 98s, 97s

mersenneary's picture
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Take a look at the 70% table

Take a look at the 70% table in the "frequent minraiser" article - that's where it gets much more murky. I would say 75%, 80%, etc, for when I start jamming those sorts of hands. Obviously though, in practicality, it takes quite a while before you get so fine a precision on someone's minraising range, so a jamming decision usually just comes down to something more general, like "they seem to be raising almost all buttons, these hands become jams".

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3-betting KQ type hands

On pg 23, you state the following:

 

"Despite their mediocre equity from jamming, KQ, KJ, KTs, and QJs do extremely well in 3-bet pots, and gain a lot of value from making a pot-sized 3-bet and inducing calls from loads of dominated hands, or hands with two undercards, that we play very well against on the flop. I recommend 3-bet/calling these hands readless"

 

So you are saying that if we 3-bet at 10/20 level to 80-100, and opponent shoves, we should call it off with a hand like KTs? I know you have then put those extra chips in the pot, but you still have 4/5 of your stack left, and it just doesn't seem right, as I usually wouldn't call this off until about 12BB.

 

 

 

grrgrrbla's picture
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your math is a bit off, mers

your math is (in some cases) a bit off, mers is assuming 20bb stacks,

 

let's say we 3xbet with kts to 5bbs so theres his 2bb (assuming he is minraising) and your 5bb out there and he shoves his remaining 18bb in there, so we have to call 15bb more to win 40, so we need 15/40 = 0,375 , 37,5% equity , given a very tight broke range by him of 22+,ATs+,ATo+ we have 39.37% equity so our call is plus ev, the average opponent is gonna shove way wider than that this so we have to call it off, if we 3xbet to more that 5bb it makes a fold worse and worse, qjs has 40% equity against the given range, and all the other hands have above our breakevenpoint of 37.5% equity so if you 3xb fold any of the given hands you are loosing money!

with a 3xb to 4bb it gets closer and you would need 40% equity, kqs/kjs/qjs would meet the 40% threshhold against the aforementioned range, but kqo/kjo/kto wouldn't, actually i don't know how wide people are jamming over a 3xb but if you add just 4 suited connectors kx or whatever as a bluff to his 22+,ats+,ato+ valuerange  you have to call it off with kjo/qjo/kjo ,

LFCBADBOY's picture
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thanks for that reply

thanks for that reply grrgrrbla.

I do understand the maths of it, but I guess that is not really what I am getting at.

I mean, we could raise to 240 chips with 72o and then justify a call because it is +ev, but obviously that is not a great play.

I am not really sure what my point is lol. But I guess I just feel like we could profitably flat these hands, and use our post-flop edge to make some very +ev plays, as opposed to inflating the pot pre. Still easy enough to get the stack in by the river.

 

Anyway, I am probably wrong

mersenneary's picture
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"So you are saying that if we

"So you are saying that if we 3-bet at 10/20 level to 80-100, and opponent shoves, we should call it off with a hand like KTs? I know you have then put those extra chips in the pot, but you still have 4/5 of your stack left, and it just doesn't seem right, as I usually wouldn't call this off until about 12BB."

I usually 3bet to 120 with these hands readless and call a shove. Most random villains are pretty price insensitive and it's worth it to get a lot of value from a wide preflop calling range with a potsized 3bet. After that, yes, I think we have the equity to call off.

minotaurs's picture
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Hi, on your e book page 22,

Hi, on your e book page 22, table shows that our expectation by flatting K9 for example is -1.1 BB so we should actuallly fold it if table is correct. And below the table u wrote that your lifetime expectation when flated Q8s and similar hands is 0 but table shows its -0.8. Im sure i didnt understood something so i just want to know what are these numbers actually =]

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Quesion on methodology for Readless Ranges

Let me use the chart on page 25 of The Mersenneary ebook as an example. The title of the section: Readless Ranges: Big Blind Play 20bb Deep Against an Unknown.  A chart of 3-bet calling, 3-bet shoving, calling, and folding is presented.  The chart is showing EV for a shove against villain with effective stacks of 20bb.

May I ask the methodology for "reconstructing" the chart presented, or to produce my own charts for other stack sizes?

I have used both ProPokerTools and ICMIZER to try to "reproduce" the chart shown, but without success. Using ProPokerTools I was using the "shove equity" tool under the Tools menu. Was I in the right place?  Bottom line, I am trying to reproduce results in order to achieve a better understanding, but without success.  Some insight on how to reproduce the data in the chart would be much appreciated.

RyPac13's picture
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I believe Mers was using his

I believe Mers was using his PokerTracker database for a lot of the data in that chart. With almost 30,000 games played, it probably provided a good bit of the value in the chart.

In Mersenneary's statistical analysis series (premium membership, though the first I think is standard) he talks a lot about how he uses PokerTracker to improve his game.

Coffeeyay's Math Pack also has at least one video dealing with this, so take a look at that material and it should give you a good idea of how to construct your own charts. If you get stuck, post again or email us and we'll see if we can help you further.

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Hello, I beg to up that

Hello, I beg to up that thread because I'm a little lost.
I made a comparison with coffee hud and calculating merceanary.
The results are sometimes very different.
I used to PropokerTools range, as merceanary with the same ranks
of call.

The expectation of an all in facing a min raise, 20bb deep with opener minraise 70%
and the same calling range that merceanary give quite different results.
Could you explain to me why she and whom do I trust ^^

I put you screen links :

http://hpics.li/2c314fc

http://hpics.li/d7cb57a

[URL=http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=17916144A.jpg][IMG]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/17916144A.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=65157112B.jpg][IMG]http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/65157112B.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

 

RyPac13's picture
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Which Mersenneary ranges are

Which Mersenneary ranges are you referring to?

Aouny's picture
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Hello, in Chapter 20 bb big

Hello,
in Chapter 20 bb big blind vs a min raise, 70% open { http://www.husng.com/content/jamming-expectation-against-frequent-button-opener-20bb-deep }
3b calling range vs all in: a5o , + a3s, kto +, k9s +, qts +
I took the same software to determine the top 70% that merceanary (propokertools)
but I did not understand why I get the result if different from the
Table of merceanary

For example J5o, coffee hud tells me it's ev + 0,04bb
Mearceanary tells me that this is ev - 1.0 bb
For KQs, coffee hud tells me it's ev More 1,98bb.
Merceanary says it's ev More 1,0bb
I would like to understand why there is so much difference, or if I did
not understand something!
Thank you in any case you have to answer me, you are very active on the forum,
it's been fun.