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Discussion Thread for Optimal VPIP Out of Position
December 15, 2011 - 15:59
December 24, 2011 - 11:38#1
Hey Mers, you talked about
Hey Mers, you talked about having -100bb/100 hand when you fold on BB facing PFR.
HM2 seem to give me -50BB/100 hand. So , I think I'll have to compare my equity with 50 rather than 100 (to compare diff situations).
My question is : Is my filter ok?? or HM2 having a different way to calculate (giving us 0ev IP and -1BBev OOP).
Maybe it would be more clear to talk about -100bb/100hand on BB.
I'm a bit confused about that , even if I think I understand the basics of the situation.
December 24, 2011 - 20:42#2
does BB = "big bet" in hem2?
does BB = "big bet" in hem2?
December 26, 2011 - 11:45#4
Your right, BB mean Big
Your right, BB mean Big Bet..............(sorry to post HM2 issue itt....)
I like this chapter a lot , thanks again for the help !!!
December 29, 2011 - 21:24#5
Your ebook got me thinking
Your ebook got me thinking about widening my BB flatting range. I've looked at the equities for hands like 76o, 86o and they seem close enough to your recommendation of 96o so I'm guessing they're better than folding too (you disagree?). Then, I looked closer and found that even seemingly unplayable hands like K2o, Q2o, J6o have almost 50% equity vs a 95% mr. In fact, their raw equity is better than stuff like 96o. I realize they play like crap but we only need to win 25% to breakeven. For instance, for an 80% button range, 96o will have 50% equity ON THE FLOP 33% and K2o will have 50% equity almost 35% of the time. Have you experimented with playing a 65%+ range to mrs with stuff like K2o? Or are there any successful players you know of that play nearly 70% vs a mr?
December 31, 2011 - 15:44#7
Yeah, I wasn't looking at K2o
Yeah, I wasn't looking at K2o just in terms of all-in equity since that doesn't cover playability at all. The numbers I gave were for FLOP equity. This will include some pure high card situations, but very few approach 50% so it should be indicative of playability too.
Here are the flop equities of K2o on various boards vs a 95% button range:
35% on 4s7dQc
36% on 5c9sQd
37% on 5c9s3d
37% on 3s7dQc
40% on 8c9sAd
42% on 5c9sAd
42% on 4s7dAc
43% on 3s7dAc
44% on 3s8dAc
45% on 5c5sQd
50% on 5s5dAs
It's rare for K2o to have 50% equity on the flop vs a 95% range purely based on its high card value. So, is the 96o vs K2o comparrison based on flop equity so farfetched?
January 2, 2012 - 02:50#8
i am talking about turbos
i am talking about turbos right here and a stackdepth of more than 30bb
@mersenneary or anyone interested in discussing this:
something you do not mention in your book (as far as i remember) is what kind of opening frequencies you are assuming, i guess you assume opponent is opening close to 100%, which is why we have to defend >50% to not get exploited, but what if our opponent opens closer to 80% or 60%? what if he is more barrelhappy or "aggro" postflop? i guess this would significantly change our vpip out of position, but by how much?
against someone who is barrelhappy and opens 80% of the time i would guess that defending around 40% is optimal (meaning getting rid of stuff like k6o,q3s,84s, etc.) or something like this : 22+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, A4o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o, 98o , i am sry but my samplesize is too small to come up with any bb/100 numbers to prove that (maybe mers or someone else could),
now against someone who opens something like 60% of the time and is barrelhappy i would guess our range should be something like 30%? something like this: 55+, A2s+, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A6o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o
how much does beeing depper change the scenario? is there an inflection point around 50bb/40bb/xbb? or is it more like a gradual change thing where we add more 22,33,44, 76s type hands the deeper we get (maybe as a rule of thumb adding something like 2 low suited connectors or gappers the deeper we get) per 5bb.
by the same token how much should villains openraising-size change our calling range? if he is 3x i suppose that this should reduce our callingrange given his openraisingrange and a 2xrange by around 10%? if he is 2.5x i would reduce our callingrange compared to a 3x by around 5%?
the same goes for his cbetting-size and his frequencies? against an opponent who cbets ps on pretty much any flop and does the same on the turn i would again reduce my calling-range to hands that can make pairs i feel comfortable calling down with,even if he is opening a 100% and only 2x around 50bb deep
there surely are more factors to consider like our image (do we have foldequity postflop, if yes we can play more hands that make good semibluffs like suited connectors/gappers), mhm can't think of many more right more, maybe others can? but this surely would complicate things even more and i would assume that the factors i didn't mention would not change callingfrequencies all that much (maybe only by a few %) i would guess?
i know that you (mers) are assuming not having any reads, but what if we have some reads? i know that the factors i mentioned should and would change calling-frequencies, but by how much? i know that many people say: it depends bla bla bla or itÄs a feel thing bla bla bla, but beeing a pokerplayer who likes to play according to reason or at least question his "feel" i would like to know the reasoning behind this from your/ or any succesfull players perspective
January 5, 2012 - 02:49#10
by barrelhappy i mean, that
by barrelhappy i mean, that it is hard for us to get to showdown with secondpair/thirdpair type hands, because villain either:
1) doublebarrels scarecards/ and picked up equity like gutshots/straightdraws/flushdraws etc. , so a kind of standard laggy semi-competent reg who learnt that barreling is good (maybe by reading your book :D), he will be somewhat balanced but not to the extent that he does barrel secondpairokkicker
2) just a maniac who barrels the above and alot of air too because he just heard somewhere that agressiveness is good or because he has ego-issues and wants to win every hand, he usually is not that balanced and does not barrel second pair type hands,
maybe thats a bit more concrete, so i would guess this amounts to "standard" frequencies of type 1) 80% cbet flop 50% cbet turn ( or is it usually more? sry don't have hold em manager near but i will look it up later) and with type 2) 90% cbet flop 65% cbet turn, openraise would be let's say 90% (most common i would guess with the afore mentioned styles), so how would you change your calling-frequency? like i said in the paragraph before (to something like 40%) to have a stronger range which can stand the heat? or would you only adjust postflop by upping your call-down frequencies (calling down any 3rdpairgoodkicker against 1 and any pair against 2?)? i am assuming that both don't fold too much to 3xbets (type 1 maybe 60% and type 2 maybe 50%) so 3xbetting is not the magic answer (except for value of course), nr.1 does usually fold a decent bit to checkraises so this is an option and nr.2 actually dsn't fold too much to checkraises so this is again only an option for value (also for thin value)
i would guess that there is a third type who is balanced and barrelhappy, but i never met someone like this because i play low-stakes-donks :D
maybe this was a little more concrete, so basically my question is do we adjust our preflop-frequencies as well and if yes by how much and how? or maybe my center of attention is off and i should be thinking more about postflop: checkraise them more, calldown more, etc. so i should be changing my postflop frequencies and not so much worry about preflop because changes to my preflop frequencies don't depend so much on postflop play?
i am sry if i am not beeing clear, but this stuff is very interesting to me and there is "alot" to talk about, and having someone as competent and eloquent answer my questions is just a great opportunity so i want to use it to the fullest extent (sry mers :D, but i will ask alot more :D)
February 23, 2012 - 06:59#11
Hi mersen, huge book and
Hi mersen, huge book and lookes like perfect for all players even regs
Im french guy, play in france, only with french guy (thanks governement) and i play 50€HU. I would like to ask you about the range oop.
Personaly, Ive establish a range oop in function of a lot of game. In reality it'the range who maximise my profit on maybe 2 or 3 thousand HU. After that, i take this range and i move this in function of my opponent.
BUT the problem is, i havn't the hability the ask me the question, ok J9 is including of my "perfect range" but now my opponent is pretty tight how i can play J9 here. You see? I don't know how i have to adapt my range in function of vilain. Specificly hands like 98/J9/97 the bottom of my range typicly. Those hands can be fold, call or 3bet, and i never know when do this or this in function of this aggresive player or this tigh player.
Can you help me?
Thanks u :)
and great job anyway
June 26, 2012 - 11:31#12
Hi, first of all: great
first of all: great book mersenneary (but I think you heard that enough by know).
short (acually beginner question, although I play for quit a while now): if villain raises to 3x and we are 25bb+ deep the optimal vpip oop is theoretical 33% of hands or? And when he raises 2,5x it is around 42% or 5/12.
Thanks to anybody who can confirm this.