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- Elliot Roe
88 17bb deep
August 4, 2012 - 16:21
Villain was TAG, didnt play all his hands, check raised me huge, didnt c bet some dry and wet boards and gave up on turn. 4 bet shoved over my 1st bluff 3 bet and lost a lot of chips 2nd time 4 bet jaming 88 over my JJ When he was down to 500 [blinds 15/30] chips started shoving a lot of hands IP and OOP What would be the best way to play this hand from beggining[limping, jaming, min raising]? And if i did get in this position what would be the best play? No Limit Holdem Tournament • 2 Players$6.71+$0.29Hand converted by the official HUSNG.com hand converterSBHero2475 BBBB525 Effective Stacks: 18bbBlinds 15/30
Pre-Flop (45, 2 players)
Hero is SB
Hero raises to 60, BB calls 30
Flop (120, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 60, BB raises to 180, Hero ????????
August 4, 2012 - 22:32#1
Villain sounds aggressive so
Villain sounds aggressive so I think you have to get it in here. Hopefully they turn over a draw...
min raising is the best option pre imo as villain as been 3betting a lot from your description. Definitely getting this hand in pre is possible. I don't think it is strong enough to limp, just in case villain doesn't jam over you. I would only open jam vs a loose villain who rarely 3bets. I think we're still a bit deep for that though, maybe around 15bb?
I'm a 3.50 player tho...:)
August 17, 2012 - 01:46#3
Openraising to either induce
Openraising to either induce a 3bet get a fold or build a pot with a decent hand in position is best. Limping does nothing good for you, only overcards. Jamming would be wasteful, especially if he's 3betshoving frequently.
As played I'd shove but think it's a marginal spot. 88 is the weakest hand I would be willing to stack off with. Theres a decent amount of draws, the board is hard to hit plus he can have air. Still we probably get it in with 2 outs a decent amount and I have no idea if it's actually +ev against villain. Stacksizes are nasty, I think it's really really close I just feel that not felting this, if he seems aggressive at all, is too weak. That said AK probably does better here than 88. And it sucks a lot to double him up. I *think* it's a slightly losing play by like -30 chips or so but protects us a little bit from getting run over.
I don't think that checking behind is superior(or that much worse), most turns we are not happy to see. And I think we get flatted by worse.
October 11, 2012 - 08:28#4
Minraise is ok w/ 18bb eff.
Minraise is ok w/ 18bb eff. deep if he has indicated willinges to 3bet you. On the flop, according to your description I would check back the flop and re-evaluate on the turn. What was his aggr. stats on betting turn / river ? I can assume pretty high? I think I would just call his turn / river bets down, if the board doesnt show up anything too ugly.
As played : Close ur eyes, shove and hope he doesnt snapcall you w/ T5o.
October 11, 2012 - 09:21#5
I would just flat to maintain his bluffs
Pre im minraising calling his shoves.
If he is agressive, you can expect him to XR in a lot of paired flops. Shure he can have some draw, but the 88 in your hand make it a little less likely. If he got you, he got you in this spot, you can´t fold against an agressive opponent in this stack depth unless you have some kind of timing or sizing reads. So, I don´t think jamming over is best because he will fold the part of his range that are bluffs and you can´t fold either. So, imo, calling to keep him bluffing is the best. :)
October 12, 2012 - 03:01#6
im min-3betting, calling 4bet
im min-3betting, calling 4bet jam there. i dont like flating, put as in difficult turns as every card above 5 and any club completes posibly his drawing range. we hold 88 deffinatly makes it unlikely villain to hold 89 but this is a tiny part of his range. Its a closing decision, but i think its slightly most profitable to play back at those spots with a value hand, balances the times uve got air and make a play imo.
October 15, 2012 - 12:24#7
Like what everyone else said,
Like what everyone else said, against someone who isn't calling open shoves light but is pretty aggressive preflop I normally min raise with pocket pairs when effective stacks are low. I then call any shove or I play postflop and normally get it in due to stacks being so short. If I think they will call me though I will just open shove preflop... or if I have open shoved preflop the last few hands I just tend to do it again to send the message I am doing this light (when in actual fact I am not.. I mean I am doing it light but I am not doing it with ATC like I hope they think I am - since players don't understand push/fold play at micro - medium stakes).. normally get called pretty loosely at this point.
Against some players I would also limp pocket pairs when we are this short. I do this if they always raise my limps but won't raise my raise or won't call a shove. If they shove over my limps or 3 bet them then I will let them do this then shove over the top.
October 15, 2012 - 12:31#8
How much EV have you gain by
How much EV have you gain by choseing this move over the open-shove?
October 15, 2012 - 13:01#9
I don't have enough sample
I don't have enough sample size of doing each to compare EV - you would likely need to play millions of hands in order to get into this type of situation enough of the time then you would need to have a good sample size of playing both ways vs the same villian type. I just go on villian type and whether I think I can exploit them more by open shoving or by min raising preflop. I feel like if they are very tight against my shoves I am getting less value from a pocket pair like 8s than if I limp in or min raise and have them call me with a wide range and allow them to shove with draws/make mistakes postflop. At the end of the day though if you are playing a decent opponent I do think just doing the standard shove/fold is better - it's just that against some opponents I feel like I can exploit them by playing pots with them. I should point out that I am far more of a timing tell/read/'feel' player than a maths player. I look at pot odds/implied odds obviously but I don't go nuts with the maths... but I should look more into the maths since I am likely missing out on small amounts of value in spots. If I thought I was playing as well as I could I wouldn't have signed up to have a look at this site.