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cdon3822's picture
Theory discussion: OOP range allocation on boards where no one has anything

I would like to get some feedback about how people partition their ranges on boards where no one has anything.

(obviously not literally, but the spots where generally both players have weak ranges)

 

Say for example we are on the BB facing a min raise @ 25BB in a hyper turbo HUSNG.

The opponent model we will assume for this discussion will be:

villain min raising range @ 25BB = 70%

hero flatting range = Ax7x-Ax2x,Ax7y-Ax2y,KxTx-Kx2x,KxJy-Kx2y,QxJx-Qx2x,QxJy-Qx4y,JxTx-Jx2x,JxTy-Jx4y,Tx9x-Tx2x,Tx9y-Tx7y,9x8x-9x5x,9x8y,9x7y,8x7x-8x5x,8x7y,7x6x,7x5x,7x5y,6x5x,5x4x

board = [KK3]

villain cbets 100% of his preflop min raising range 0.5P (where P=pot size before bet) when checked to

'air' will be somewhat arbitrarily defined as

- flopped < pair

- no

'something' will be likewise be defined as (1-air)

 

Given the above assumptions, if my calculations are correct:

villain has air = 70.56%

hero has air = 79.97%

Which means about 56% of the time both player's ranges are air.

 

When villain cbets he risks 0.5P to win (P+0.5P) = 1.5P

Which means if we check fold > (0.5 / 1.5) = 33%

Villain auto profits by cbetting 100% of his range.

Note that we will only have 'something' about 20% of the time.

So if we simply check fold all our 'air' and let villain cbet 100% of the time he will exploiting our imbalanced defending range.

 

I would like to hear player's philosophies/strategies on constructing a range in this spot to find an edge:

Option 1:Bet size differential edge.

If we assume that if roles were reversed that villain would also be giving up too much in this spot then we might be able to find an edge by betting smaller that he would. If we say for example 40% pot and villain folds the same static air range, we profit the differential

40% cbet when BB defends 20%  [ 1 -(0.4 / 1.4) - (0.2 ] P = 0.51 P

50% cbet when BB defends 20%  [1 - (0.5 / 1.5) - (0.2) ] P = 0.47 P

edge = 0.51 P - 0.47 P = 0.04 P

So on average if both players defend here 20% and are not price sensitive, a smaller bet size will on average yield an edge of about 4% of a single raised pot.

 

Option 2: Defend by calling with more marginal SDV hands or turning more of our hands into bluffs

a) c/r range

b) donking range

c) float and bluff later street range

 

Considerations: Typically bluffs are most profitable where they are made in spots where:

i) we can rep a lot of strong hands (it is believable we would take the same line for value) => we have a strong perceived range

ii) our opponent's range is weak

 

So how do we play our value range in this spot?

Or more importantly, how does our opponent typically expect us to play our value range here?

 

Personally I think 2a and 2b are more heavily correlated to bluffing ranges and a c/c tends to be more correlated to a value range.

That said, psychologically if that is what is perceived, then maybe I do better by donking or c/r my value here and allocating my bluffs into a floating + bluff later range.

Then we also need to think about which hands in our range are best for bluffing?

 

Option 3: Other options?

eg. Don't care because the spot is so infrequent it doesn't materially contribute to our edge?

 

Would really appreciate feedback on how to best allocate your ranges in these spots?

+ Any other considerations which I have not factored into my framework? (eg. insight into how players tend to react to lines 2a,2b,2c)

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
on such boards i bet 40% pot

on such boards i bet 40% pot with 100% of my range. you don´t get played back on very often in such spots, except you have a notorious check raiser in the BB.

 

as to if we were the big blind and how would we play that spot:

check raising KK3 wouldn´t be done with a king, because you don´t want to give the SB a chance to fold. now if you want to bluff and represent a king, you´d have to just call here. the turn, depending on villain´s tendencies could be either a lead or a check raise. the consequence would be though, that you´d have to fire most rivers as well.

 

 

cheers

s.

 

cdon3822's picture
Thanks for the

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Given Kx would be unlikely to c/r here.

When we get c/r in position do you think it's profitable to reshove ATC?

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
i´ll make a proper

i´ll make a proper calculation later today. out of the top of my head i´d say that it is profitable. but i´d rather check the math and see how often villain will have to check raise as a pure bluff on that board for a shove to be profitable.

adam25185's picture
check raising KK3 wouldn´t be

check raising KK3 wouldn´t be done with a king, because you don´t want to give the SB a chance to fold.

Personally, I would often c/r with Kx in this spot. A small c/r will often be called by 3x, ace (or even queen) high and any poket pair. Pure air might play back as well. I would have thought your Kx would look rather obvious with a c/c line, so in my view c/r is often the best play. In addition, if you don't c/r your value you could be unbalanced.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts if you disagree with me? 
 

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
Would be interested to hear

Would be interested to hear your thoughts if you disagree with me? 

 

i actually don´t disagree at all. 

fox871013's picture
if board is KK5r in your Flat

if board is KK5r

in your Flat range..

our range have 567 combos in this board.

i will check-raise { KJo-K9o,K5o,KTs-K9s,K5s,A5o,A5s } 40 combos for value . { 98s-96s,87s-86s,76s w/ backdoor FDs } 18 combos as bluff

and all the value combos will call SB flop 3bet shove.   

 

i will check call

1.the rest of Kx 5x .. total 48+51 combos

2.A7o-A6o,A4o-A2o,A7s-A6s,A4s-A2s 81 combos

3.QJo-QTo,JTo,QJs-QTs,JTs 48 combos

​4.Q9s-Q6s,Q4s-Q2s w/ Backdoor flushdr.  27 combos

5.Q9o-Q6o 48 combos

6.J9s-J6s,98s-96s,87s-86s,76s w/ Backdoor flushdr 12 combos.

so our check-call range have 308 combos 

 

check-raise 10%

check-call 54%

check-fold 35%

total Defense Frequency 64%。。 close to MDF.

you can add more hands into your check-raise range or check-call range make your defense Frequency = MDF

assum we are defend = MDF.. so SB's betting EV = Fold ev

the pot is 4bb. .. SB will have 0bb after this hand. .. BB will have 4bb after this hand. for a long run.

BB preflop only pay 1bb in the pot .. so if BB will have 1bb after flop action.. it can make BB preflop calling better than folding.

if BB will have 2bb after flop action ,the bb preflop calling  is +1bb/100 Contrast​ folding.

even SB flop betting will have +2bb ,the Big blind player is not auto losing.

 

I think you are too much care about these theory stuff..

I sharkscope your Pokerstars name .. and you are only play #5000 game 1 year..

you put too much time on the theory less time in your real play.

That is a very bad choose.

during Last 15 Month I just do the same thing as you do..

watching video , reading books.. work CREV.. etc..

now , i beat 7$ w/ 4%+ roi. less than 2% roi in 15$ ,my pokerstars name is FoxOrzOn .you can check it.

 

I think if i put much more time on the table , not the study .. i will being much more better.

playing is also a study way.. and it can make money.

 

just some advise .. im sorry if this make you unhappy..

imy english not good enough.  sorry for that.

cdon3822's picture
Thanks for your reply.  I

Thanks for your reply. 

I don't think your calculation of bb/100 is correct but I appreciate the time you spent to post this. Especially the range allocation. 

 

I started playing poker about 2 years ago and HUSNGs a bit over a year ago. 

I have limited time at home to play - hence the 5,000 game sample over a year. Whereas I have a lot of time during the week where I'm commuting to and from work of which I spend a lot it thinking about poker strategy. 

This year I've only played about 1,300 games. Partly because of limited time with a hectic work schedule and partly because I've lost motivation to play after running -6.5% under equity adjusted ROI when I moved up to 15s early this year (ROI adj = 2.6%).

Poker is just a hobby for me so my potential is fairly capped wrt playing at stakes that might return something close to what I can make in a professional environment. So although the money matters to the extent that it measures my improvement, I'm definitely not grinding poker for the pocket change it yields at the stakes I play. Now also, I understand the reg : fish ratio at higher levels have increased to a point that cartels have been formed to control the lobbies at stakes > $30. If you're not playing full time, you essentially won't be able to move up beyond $30 stakes. Which is even less motivation to spend my spare time playing. 

fox871013's picture
For limited time at home to

For limited time at home to play.

I think you did veryyyyy well. I should learn from you.

Thank you for your reply.

 

Im not spend too much time for the last posted. 

you are right. the range , the bb/100 is not all correct.  

cdon3822's picture
Unfortunately not enough to

Unfortunately not enough to iron out the variance of hyper turbos. 

Hoping to be able to multitable when I get better so I can achieve higher volumes.