this sounds like a very interesting video. however I cant find the download button :S

excellent end game play video! Thanks

Oh boy, this should really be in the Standard Membership, bcuz I wanna watch it soo bad! C´mon guys!!!

C'mon now, it's advanced end game play.  It belongs in the Premium area!

ROFL

rofl, u used to be such a nice guy ChiRy! ;-p

Glad you all like it. One more general takeaway point (I may have mentioned it in the video but really want to hammer it home):

There's a big tendency in poker to want to find unbeatable strategies so you can just sit back and print money. We all hate variance so much and most of us (I do, anyway) wish poker weren't such hard work and that we could just play a static strategy and be guaranteed to be +EV. That's one thing people mistake as an allure of these new superturbos: No complex deep-stacked three-street decisions, and there's this perception that you can just shove a static range and you win. But the reality is, that approach is lazy, and never how you actually win the maximum amount of money (or win at all). You can't just shove NASH and call with NASH, assuming your opponent is playing perfectly in order to make yourself feel better about your play. Exploit, exploit, exploit.

this seems very interesting. Somewhere in the video you mentioned that shoving nash >8 BB is -EV. Why is that? I thought Nash is unexploitable 20BB or less? Or do you mean we loose EV by not playing ROFL?

Why do you want to apply ROFL with 12BB exactly? Up to how many BB would you apply the same range? 20-25?

So I usually 3betshove a Nashlikerange when I see villain 2xing 12BB deep. I usally don´t care if he has ever done it before, and the only reason not to shove is villain having a tight button range in general. For the same reason I wonder about how likely we are -EV with ROFL if villain is only 3bet shoving a small percentage like 30-40% (which is std IME)... Have you ever calculated this in stoxpoker?

On a side note, I would like to see you making a superturbo video to demonstrate ROFL vs different villains. I would appreciate it much more than a leakfinder video with someone else playing.

Good questions, happy to clarify.

1. My understanding is that shoving NASH >8 BB agains the NASH calling range is indeed -EV. The number might be a little different, but the main point should be easy to prove: 20bb deep, NASH has you folding 60% of hands and openshoving 40%. If BB calls with top 30% of hands, he has 60% equity. So 60% of the time you lose your small blind, 24% of the time you get it in with 40% equity, and 16% of the time you win his big blind. That's not +EV. It's an equilibrium because no player can improve using different shoving or calling ranges (if all the rest are folds) against the other player's strategy.

2. Sorry that I didn't make this clear: 12bb is just a random stack depth that I talked about what you might do at it. I did NOT mean it as "the ROFL range", just an example to get you thinking about the benefits of having minraising and shoving ranges. I don't mean ROFL as a static range, just the idea that we can minraise or limp instead of just openshoving and folding. What range you use will be adapting to your opponent's tendencies.

3. I'm a little confused as to your exact question here, but I think it goes back to me not meaning the ranges I used as an example to mean "these are the ranges you should employ", but rather here are some ranges you might employ against a particular opponent.

4. Feel free to watch my first video on this site, which is an endgame video incorporting minraising and limping, if you haven't already. There will be more in the upcoming months.

First of all: High quality vid, for me personally the most important vid of the last weeks. Sometimes seeing ur vids I feel like a voyeur. taking advantage of deep thoughts of another person without having to think deeply for my own. Ur vids are like an inspiration which give me a sign where are the ways to improve ( with much of work for my own than of course). Having this said, i have one point to criticise ( not on the vid but on ur answers to mr. g`s questions). Imo u fail in proving that shoving nash > 8 BB is -EV. In ur example u make a mistake by involving the point of  "we lose our SB 60% of the time" into doing equity math. The equity of folding is always +-0 % ( I think i do not need  to explain this in detail). Imo its very very clear, that shoving nash is never ever -EV, but I think u are right with the realy main point: playing "rofl" can maximize our EV if we are able to recognize our opponents ranges and adapt well. I hope u dont think I`m to harsh, to clearify that: every morning  i sit down at my pc and there is a new vid of u or Hokie that makes my day.

Greeds barraya

NASH is -EV 20bb deep, I'll clarify. I mentioned we lose our SB 60% of the time to suggest we can do better for those hands, but you're right that equity of folding can be said to be 0% (if you say that, then +EV in the small blind means anything better than -0.5bb for the hand is +EV which I don't think is what is colloquially meant by "+EV from the small blind", but whatever). If we call the blinds a sunk cost, 60% of the time EV = 0, 16% of the time your EV is to end up with a 16bb stack (can call this -3.5bb if you prefer), 24% of the time our EV is to end up with a 21bb stack (can call this +1.5bb). It's still not +EV even with that framing.

To illustrate the point, you can come up with an unexploitable shove or fold range for 40bb poker, shoving like 15% of the hands and folding the rest. The NASH equilibrium extends out that far, just because the holdemresources chart says "20+" doesn't mean there isn't a specific number. But we all know it's not +EV.

@RyPac13: I cant understand this video is not available for standard memberships :O

as far as I understand the description for the standard ms, it is limited for low and midstakes buyin (playing) videos. but endgame is happening independendly from the buyin, isnt it. the description does not cover any restrictions for theorie videos.

you say the endgame content in this video is "advanced" but what does that mean? for example primo has published great 25/50+ videos that are downloadable for standard memberships. are those not advanced? they are imo ;)

to me putting this for premium only is kind of random. so pls reevaluate our request and make this video accessible for all members of husng.com

thanks a lot, BBU

+1 id love to see this one too.

The main factors that contributed to this being a premium video:

- This is an advanced concept video.  I haven't even fully watched it, but I would guess nothing near this exists for heads up sngs anywhere online.  Plenty winning regulars at the high stakes would almost certainly benefit from this video.

- Mersenneary's videos are generally going to be geared towards $55 type buyin level winners and up.  I don't think this video is an exception.

- Yes, low stakes players would absolutely benefit from this video.  But I don't think there's a video on this site that isn't valuable to a low stakes player. 

- The comparison to the other end game videos on the site (Primo, myself, Fydor all did at least one I believe) is a little skewed because those videos are older.  If Primo did a 25-50 video right now and it was advanced play, basically a guide to how he thinks and plays in the end game, it would likely be in the premium section (beginner's guide to end game type video aside).

For now, I recommend upgrading to a Premium Memberhsip if you've found the other end game videos lacking for your game and you're already beating husngs at a pretty big clip.  If you're not winning, then there's certainly going to be a ton of value to be had in the over 100 videos available in the standard membership.

We will look into getting some sort of an end game video for the standard membership, however.  The popularity of this video and the standard members wanting it shows me that there is a clear demand for it.

Also BBU, to answer your other question:

Yes, end game does happen independently.  But the overriding theme is that advanced videos/higher level videos are going to be put into the Premium and lower stakes, clearer more basic concepts are going to be put into the Standard.

My video vs BCM was in a $10 game.  However, it was clearly for the Premium section, as I was playing a very high caliber professional player and Skates was also commenting.

The buyin level thing is mostly to make it easier to see what's available (and so I don't spend 8 hours debating between which videos from a year ago go into which section, the time put into the update by myself and Gregor was already high).  I still added some videos above the $55 level, just for the mid to high stakes struggling/non winning players that may subscribe and aren't sure if the Premium tier cost is too high (some people were previously turned off to our pricing before the new changes, but I never heard a complaint of the quality of the videos from any new subscriber.  That's aside from the few issues some longer term members had with the volume of new releases, what I'm saying is that the video catalogue as a whole has never been questioned quality wise).

A lot of the value from the standard membership comes in having access to 100+ total videos encompassing every single video maker (aside from Mers, for now, but that's because he's being utilized to his strengths and I think that's for the Premium tier at the moment and he's too new for us to deviate his videos into the lower stakes at this point).  But you'll also get new videos from Cog, myself and 4+ leakfinder videos from Fydor each month.  We're also looking at guest videos, specifically for the Standard tier, but haven't had anything completed yet.

Hey mers, I didn't watch the video but I read your comments.  Thanks for pointing out that NASH is actually a negative EV game for the SB when all he can do is push or fold until we get under 8 bb when it becomes marginally profitable.  Luckily we have other plays in are arsenal such as limping :)  And also luckily most opponents call shoves too tightly so we can end up actually utilizing high percentage pushing strategy profitably in the 10bb and under area.  Heck I've played many opponents that only call my shoves when they have a pair or an ace-x hand which is only 20% of hands and I can end up pushing everything (throwing away just a hand here and there so they don't alter their range).

Anyone under the impression that all you need to do is look at some chart (aka NASH) to play super turbos or SNG end game will surely be disappointed in their results.

Certainly we all know that pushing Nash against the Nash calling range is not + EV, but its not - EV either. Of course ur example seems to show that it is - EV, but I think u are creating false impressions by not using the correct numbers. At 20 BB the Nash calling range is not 30 % but 23,83 % and the equity of the caller is not 60% but 55,718 %. Doing the math with this numbers will show thats round about a breakeven situation and that is why Nash is an equilibrium. Dont get me wrong, I think we can do better than playing nash by exploiting specific opponents weaknesses with for example playing "rofl", too. As pokerbot102 stated : in order to be sucessfull u have to do more than simply playing by some charts, but u have to do more than simply looking some vids of competent players and believing every single word they say too.

barraya,

Do you believe there is a +EV openshove-or-fold strategy for 50bb? There isn't, even though you can construct a Nash equilibrium shoving and calling range for that stack depth. You're confused about some points, a situation being breakeven is not what makes something a nash equilibrium. There is a NASH equilibrium 3bb deep and it's heavily in the SB's favor. I'll leave it at that lest I write an article in the comments RyPac really should pay me for ;)

@RyPac: I dont want to blow the feedback area here with a non content related issue.

but ok, you did your best to explain why you think the video is premium content - thanks for your detailed reply.

you know, just to see my piont of view. I had been contributing to your site by letting you publish my 2 coaching videos with primo for free. now I and other members request access to a video that IMO could very well be in a standard membership and all compromise you offer is to upgrade the membership - no meeting halfway or anything (fe open this video as teaser for later "advanced" theorie content + adding more details to the sm description to make clear what is excluded etc). I def dont think I am entitled to anything or so just because I shared something with the community. it just feels a bit DOH, ducy.

no worries, just my 2 cents ;)

I thought having an introduction to end game play was a solid compromise.

If we put videos like this in the standard membership (theoretically, if we had the standard membership for a year now lets say) we wouldn't have the money to have hired Mersenneary or Itried in the first place.

I'm assuming this is the video you and a few others want to see the most, so it's probably our "best" video in some ways.  We can't logically put our best videos in the standard tier, it devalues the premium tier and devalues the entire market (which has already been devalued some, but in a good way, with the standard membership in general).

The best I can do is get an introductory end game video planned, hopefully by Mersenneary.  If these videos cost $20, I'd be glad to throw them all out there for even lower than $25 a month, but that's not realistic and we won't allow ourselves to remain the leader in this content for long if everything were $25.  A few of the other training sites have many very high quality competitors and charge a lot higher than that.  Our biggest competitor is about to be 1/10th of our team that left.

As for you doing coaching videos, etc. with Primo for the site: If you were interested in a subscription for those things I'm sure it could be worked out.  Those videos were done a long time ago iirc, and always are much appreciated when students allow their coaching videos to be used, though it is more a benefit to the coach, as we have to pay the coaches regardless if they use a student video or a live session (you likely saved Primo some time).  But that video went over well, and I'm more than happy to throw a student who contributed in a video something like a free month when the video that they were in is a huge hit.

barraya,

I was actually thinking exactly like you and thought that Mersenneary was wrong with him stating that at 8bb (big blinds) the NASH push/fold strategy is negative EV for the SB (small blind).  THEN I ran the numbers and found out he is actually correct.  At 8bb, with only the option to push or fold it is a negative EV game for the SB and thus positive for the BB (big blind).  The more bb you add to the stacks the more positive it becomes for the BB at equilibrium.  This is because of limiting the SB to only pushing or folding.

8bb NASH push/fold SB EV calculation:

Some numbers to note, the SB pushes 62.3% of the time, the BB calls 45.4% of the time, the EV of the SB when he is called is 46.4%

Raise - Not called = 62.3% * (1-45.4%) * 1bb = .340bb

Raise - called = 62.3% * 45.4% * (-8 + 16*46.4%) = -.163bb

Fold = (1-62.3%) * -.5bb = -.186bb

Total = .340 -.163-.186= -.01bb

I also ran the numbers at 7bb and it is positive .01bb EV for the SB.

Hey Mers, congrats, ur poker understanding is great, and what is great too is that u can explain it very well, im interested in some coaching, how can i contact u?

tx

Feel free to email me at mers@husng.com. You can see my coaching listing under that tab for more details, as well.

BBU even though this community is great and friendly you need to remember it's a business and it would not be a smart business move to put this kind of video in the cheaper package.

" chance it was a dud"

LOL.

Great vid. Thinking of renewing for a year because Mers vids are super +EV. Must be a teacher or something irl.

:) I am, actually. Trying to be the teacher with the cool car that makes the kids suspicious I'm dealing drugs or something to supplement the salary.

Third video of the month will be out soon, it's more standard gameplay, 50 mins total. Glad you're enjoying them!

Exceptional vid mers! I really luv these theory Power point vids.

Definitely worth the small 'premium membership' fee :)

Hey Mers,  I really dugg this video.  My endgame stratagy had a lot more push/fold in it than minraises at <14bb.  I'm trying to adapt a lot of the concepts in this video, but find I run into a couple situations that make me feel a portion of what you said is -ev.  I think this is partly because part of the situation is missing in your lecture, not because I think you're wrong.

Here's an example: 

I'm @12bb vs a tagg and start minraising your sample range of 48.3%, and shoving your sample shove range.  Villain calls 90% of my min-raises, and the majority of my cbets.  Your lecture suggests that you should increase your betting range to atc vs a villain that calls a lot of opens this deep and never 3bets.  I'm assuming that's only if they fold to cbets?

How should I adapt my stratagy vs a villain like this?

Again, great video.  First vid I've watched since going premium, and it makes me feel like I'm ripping HUSNG.com off.

Hi nodeg,

That's a very good question, and a good point for me to clarify. If your opponent is calling super loose on all streets, you want to tighten up your opening range a bit and go to value town. I assumed in the video that you're playing against the type of loose passive player who will call a lot pre but fold when they don't hit the flop.

Against the loose passive pre and post, try limping more of the Q2/T7 stuff, openfolding the 54o, and having a stronger raising range that gets to have a lot of fun getting value from a station.

What a fantastic vid. I might have some questions after I watch it 5 more times. Thanks!

Ok, so I have in fact watched it a few more times now :) I really think, aside from how valuable the concepts in this vid are themselves, the way you structured it and made arguments for each point is about as good as it can be.

So some questions here:

• First, about how to first implement this into one's game. I figure you yourself are good and experienced enough that you can inmediately start the end game with different types of ROFL ranges based on what you've observed in earlier play. Since I am not, to start implementing ROFL, the concept of "standard exploitative play" suggests you might have some sort of standard ROFL range that you'll usually start with until opponent gives you reasons to adjust, and which will exploit the standard popullation? If so, I imagine it would look like the sample range of the vid? 
• This might be too general of a question, but: In general lines, what type of changes do the ranges experiment as stack sizes change. For example, when you're 16BBs deep instead of 12, openshoving A4 is probably no good, but it still kind of sucks to raise fold it. So limp it instead? Obviously I don't expect you to give a sample range for every stack size, but if you could say something about how stack size generally affects the type of distribution that you want to have in your ranges, that would be great.
• At what stack size do you think it stops making sense to use ROFL? For instance, raise-folding at 6BBs in not plausible, so I figure at that stack size you do have to turn to push/fold, then what is your limit for that? And on the other end, how deep does openshoving stop making sense? When this happens, I understand limping hands you don't want to raise-fold but you can limp-call is the correct adjustment?
• About having a limping range, in the video you leave it as something very player-dependent, and you advocate finding how opponents adjust earlier in the game. If you don't have limping as part of your early game, as I for example don't: Do you always have a limping range as part of ROFL, will you start limping certain hands at 20BBs on a regular basis, or will you only start doing it when you're given a reason to? 

Wow monster post... that's what you get for saying questions are welcome at the end of each video!

P.S: When is the "BB advanced end game play" vid coming out? Granted you have less options on the BB, but I'm sure there's a lot more to it than I know about. Doo it, doo it :)

Fantastic video, many thanks for it!

Nicoasp's questions are my questions, too, I'd really apprecaiate if you could answer, Mers!

Thanks a lot

Thanks for the questions:

The ROFL range in the vid is a decent approximation of where I'd start 12bb deep, though likely we have reads by the time we get to 12bb deep that will make it different. And it's a continuum, so we're doing different things at 11bb deep, 13bb deep, etc, so don't go memorizing ranges.

A4 is a particularly bad hand to limp because all the junk the BB is checking behind has good equity against it. It depends on opponent, but around 15bb or so I start raise/calling or raise/folding depending on how wide your opponent is 3bet shoving.

Very good question. I start just openshoving at 7-8bb because it's more valuable to make sure Kx/QT stuff gets in, although you can still mess around with your premium pairs.

As for limping, if you notice your opponent seems fairly passive (not necessarily in limped pots), that's indicative that it can be good to limp a hand like T7 12bb rather than raise/folding. Basically there are indicators which help let you know whether you can profitably limp even if you're not limping much in the early game.

The best way to learn anything is to watch somebody who has already succeeded actually go through the exact steps.

Thanks

After seeing that very good/impressive vid, i had the exact same questions than Nicoasp and sawee...

You gave some answers for part of them...but i would insist to know what is about ROFL at the upper hand of ST, say the 16/>20>25 BB effective stack dephts? So near the beginning of the game where you  still have  no or few reads about the villain's 3bet/shoving ranges...

Do ROFL still makes sense or does it become sort of RF(-L?) stuff? I mean, for instance, can you openshove some hands for 20/25BB deep without be face-up doing that only with low pocket pairs? are you merging that range with sometimes monster premium pairs or AR/AD (even randomly) too?

EX:you play against me 1rst time and..1rst hand (25bbdeep)=A5...i expected you to minraise it at this stage (40).Now i shove it all-in or 3bet something like 100 or 120...WHAT ARE YOU DOING THEN?

About the Limping range .Do you systematically add it anytime soon in your gain to exploit STD( or even good REG opponents?)  ONLY if you think you could exploit them much by outplaying them postflop or if they are way tooagressive with their reshoving range and you want not raise/folding stuff like D/V10..R9 etc...? On the other hand, if the opponents are so agressive (as the regs of ST are at high stakes game i specced on FTP)..is't not better to still forgo the Limp range and just go to adjust (wider) the RAISE/Callingshove range?

Between battle of REGS/TOP players of superturbos like PRIMOAA, GIFTED0/8, Sifosis,ppphhh55,666upswing666  and so..on FT, .I almost NEVER see limps above 15bb deep and even very few (50% bad/50% verygood) below that...so what about?

Last question;Do necessary the ROFL( with eventually the L beeing active) go with a trap LIMP/Reshoving-allin range?

" chance it was a dud"

LOL.

Pretty much this, sick good video.  Thanks very much.

I just want to say that I've just watched trhis ivd again and it is such an awesome vid. Anyone questioning it's place obv hasn't seen it, because it's about as premium as it gets. <3 your work sir.

Been directed to maroboo's question here.

Closer to 20-25bbs, it makes much less sense to have a wide limping range or openjamming range readless. I still think 22-33 have the best expectation openjamming at these stack depths, but there's probably nothing I would limp first hand in a ST 25bb deep.

First hand with A5, I'd fold to a 3bet against a random opponent.

I answered your raise/calling question in another thread, but to add to it, some stuff (like T7s) never becomes correct to raise/call. Don't worry so much about being exploitable. Force your opponent to jam with a wide range 16bb deep over a limp (you can adjust to that too!).

Plenty of high stakes players have a limping range, most of the ones you mentioned don't happen to, but many others do.

If my opponent starts adjusting and playing more aggressively against limps it does become optimal to start trapping.

this is so awesome, making for 3 pages of notes.Thank you!