nice video sir! Very nice to see things from your perspective after watching Mr.Chadders vids.

Just a quick question, at 09:15, the board comes Q 10 J, and you have 9 10 oop. Chadders checks back the flop, I was wondering what your thoughts would be on leading the turn for thin value with your 10 and oesd?

Thanks :)

 i think it is the best video so far from you. I like that you correct some  plays you were doing, although some you missed. I think some spots you could get deeper in reasoning, especially preflop, but still a good video Jan!

@23:30 That min4bet hand i found really interesting & really made me think.

First of all. I really was wondering what hand chadders had that he thought he can profitably call & then check/fold the flop with? It looks to me that most of those hand he should either be jamming if he thinks your full of bs a pretty decent % of the time or should just be folding. Ofcourse chadders is getting great potodds on a call (60 in a total pot of 280), but does that justify a call with a hand that could be check/folding this flop (like 46s, 67/78 etc. or hand like q4s for that matter)??

With a SPR of just above 1 (meaning low implied odds) and the low% of time that one flops a really good bord combined with the percentage of time that when you stack off on the flop you still run into decent equity when called or are even behind (when you run into a better toppair or an overpair or a toppair when u have 2nd pair,e tc.).

Its a bit of a complex problem to figure out also math-wise.. but it really made me think about: "What range of hands can chadders call a min4bet with here against your perceived min4bet range that is still profitabel with the SPR just being slightly more than 1?"

Second of all: If chadders has a wide calling range against your min4bets (e.g he calls with a lot of his trashy bluf3bets hands because he thinks the pot odds justify a call) shouldn't you be expanding your min4betting range to a depolarized value range with the lower end of your value-jamming range instead of just jamming (I'm thinking here of hands like Kq,kj,KTs(?), AT, TT maybe)? How much should you be min4betting then (e.g. what's the Stack-to-Pot-Ratio you want to set up postflop).

I'm really curiouss if anyone has some interesting thoughts about this matter

In some of the hands the HUD was covering what chadders' hole cards were....irritating!

Besisdes that, your analysis was spot on; its a good video

"09:15, the board comes Q 10 J, and you have 9 10 oop. Chadders checks back the flop, I was wondering what your thoughts would be on leading the turn for thin value with your 10 and oesd?"

I usually dont hate it vs unknowns. However in this spot, i think if we bet and we get a call, chadders is gonna fold a bunch on 8 / K rivers (unless he floats the turn with A high which is a real part of his range, but that will own us on a K river as well. )

So betting the turn, with the intention of building a pot so we can get more value on river isnt great in this scenario because i dont think well get much value on the river, also when we do bet the turn, thinking about chadders his check/b range i see a ton of Jx and Ax there mainly

sure we could valuebet vs Ax but we get owned quite often vs his Jx type hands that he checks behind.

I think its quite close, but given this, i preferred checking and possibly calling one street if he bet, (so a more passive way of playing this hand) then playing a rather large-ish pot with a marginal hand. 

"First of all. I really was wondering what hand chadders had that he thought he can profitably call & then check/fold the flop with? It looks to me that most of those hand he should either be jamming if he thinks your full of bs a pretty decent % of the time or should just be folding."

Chadders had Q3s here, its like this, he cant think im FOS a decent % of the time, because its the first time i actively play back on his wide 3betting he has done. So he is imo, too readless about my behavior and my range there to just ship a large % of his 3bet hands.

The fact that (which i showed in the vid) he even goes as far as to say : "Show a bluff, and your a God" makes it more then obvious to me, that he doesnt expect me to have a bluff much, if ever there. Given that i agree that i think he should fold w/ most hands exept with those that flop superwell like lets say he was 3betting some 79s (which i doubt) hence when he flatted it was somewhat weird to me, but on that board I figured if i make this small bet (im not sure what size was) but i only need to get folds bout 1/4th of the time, and its gonna look so rediculous strong combined with my preflop line that he definatelly wont make a move on me. So i think my cbet is a clear MUST. As far as his play goes ( you kinda have to ask him, i cant quite comment on his presumable mistakes in game) , its rather close depending on his range. I think his flat with Q3s might be borderline mistaken. But the reason why i think it is close, is because if he continues to 3bet wide and then just snap folds everytime i min4bet for like 40 chips more, he will give me the "gameflow edge" and put himself up to get crushed later on, because he will basically be self owning his own strategy(which is 3betting wide from the start) if he suddenly starts folding a ton to the smallest of raises preflop. Hence i guess he decided to flat as in taking a stance by flatting and hoping to hit anythin at all some draw or some pair plz :P

So for metagame, i like the fact that he flatted (and gave up on flop). As for equity considerations, ehhhm not so much :p

"shouldn't you be expanding your min4betting range to a depolarized value range with the lower end of your value-jamming range instead of just jamming"

Yes and no, chadders was 3 betting around 30% in these videos, given my wide opening range, he prolly has a majority of valuehands in his range, hence min4betting a bunch will just increase variance, because he will start 5bet jamming lighter. You have a great mind, and i like the way you think. But I think its important to see this the way it is, playing back at someone once in a blue moon like this. Not an adjustment we are gonna make over a significant amount of games, because chadders will adjust fairly correctly against it after seeing us do it a few times. its more something i did to throw him off, to make him think wtf is going on , im getting soul ownd.

Also if i expand my min4b range, im basically creating a new range, because usually i dont have a min4b range :)

Think about what this does to your other ranges, for example i get dealt AQo i mr , chadders 3bets, i should almost never be flatting here. Normally easy ship, however, now if i ship its so transparent that i ship with hands that are high cards ish and feel like they might get outflopped if i give him good odds to call pre. 

So im actually owning myself if i start including AT+ in my min4bet range, because im not realising my full equity im actually giving him somewhat of good odds to try and outdraw me, as far as KJ/KQ go etc, if i min4bet this, am i calling a jam? am i really folding? also these hands esp suited are so great for flatting in 3b pots and bluffcatching do we really wanna give up our equity from flatting just to min4bet and get into suboptimal spots?. 

So basically AT+ we want to keep in our 4bet jam range, else that range becomes wayyyyyyyyy too weak imo, and KJ/KQ if we dont have that in our flat range? then whats our flatting range vs 3bets? all weak marginal speculative hands, that he will be able to barrel us off on in 3bet(read: bigger then avg) pots (read; hell print money postflop every time we flat)

It gets really hard, and to play correctly in a dynamic like that, we would need to have very good reads on his diff ranges (flatting range, 3b range, min4bcallrange, 5brange) before being able to correctly calculate what plays would be actually +EV and which ones wouldnt be. Basically without very extensive reads and plans on playing tons of games vs an opponent i would never recommend creating a dynamic like this. Because it is so easy to make -EV moves in that dynamic because of the incomplete information we will have about his ranges for the longest time, and when we figure it out , if ever (lol), he will readjust em slightly and we will have to refigure it out and it will turn into one long ass levelling game imo.Altho it is deffo an interesting point, and im very happy you are thinking on this level, i think including a min4bet range is almost always gonna make ur life hard.

"In some of the hands the HUD was covering what chadders' hole cards were....irritating!" Yesss tilts me superhard as well when 4+ tabling and i cant see what opponent had ;( I tried to make sure to everytime mention it by voice tho what his HC where. I remember when recording at one point i even scream he has 56s!!!:p

" i think it is the best video so far from you. I like that you correct some  plays you were doing, although some you missed. I think some spots you could get deeper in reasoning, especially preflop, but still a good video Jan!"

Thank you appreciated :) As always i try to take constructive criticims and comments in regard. hence ive stopped moving my mouse over the video so much, and started using pre-recorded footage rather then live footage :)

I also believe its the best vid yet by me :)

"Besisdes that, your analysis was spot on; its a good video"

Agreed, thank you :)

Great vid, Ty! Just one question @14:15 you limp/fold K4o 10.75bb deep, then say that it is better to minraise/fold it here. Nash and sklansky-chubukov charts say that under 13.1 bbs (nash) and 11.4 bb (chubukov) it is push. Isn`t it better to push here, facing such aggressive oponent ?

Interesting stuff in your reply & yes i think expanding a min4bet range with hands from your jamming range seems like just making your own life very difficult and not such a good idea after all. I like including trash hands once in a while though like this & if he calls frequently then also min4betting kk/AA(?!).

I'm not so sure about calling that t60 for reasons of gameflow edge though with trash hands in a lowstacked game like st's, but i do think, like you suggested chadders would probably do, that jamming more widely over min4bets is the better adaptation gameflow-wise.

all-in-all,, nice that you expanded your thoughprocesses for me here. Made me think about these spots better i think.

"Great vid, Ty! Just one question @14:15 you limp/fold K4o 10.75bb deep, then say that it is better to minraise/fold it here. Nash and sklansky-chubukov charts say that under 13.1 bbs (nash) and 11.4 bb (chubukov) it is push. Isn`t it better to push here, facing such aggressive oponent ?"

Yes totally!

Jamming is definitely optimal here, i rewatched the spot, and no clue where my brain went when i was explaining that :D around 10bbs any K vs chadders deffo gonna be a jam ^^