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kromaboy99's picture
how can I have an edge on pokerstars???

Ok guys, I know I already complained few months ago..and your answers should be "stop playing" lol and you're maybe right but I love this game and sometimes hate it but that's poker.I would ask you "the pros" or HU grinders and winning players if you noticed something like this..I lost today 2/3 of my small winnings (it tooks me 3 months to get) I lost it in 3 hours..ok that's Hypers but I agree I am not the best player and I do mistake but is it a mistake when I 3 bet shove AQ and my opponent calls me we QJ and hits the J, is it a mistake when I push 12BB deep with ATs and get called by KT and the guy hits his T...again and again and again... I noticed it happends really often even when I was able to have winning days I noticed how often I was losing this 70/30...but today was not real..I will check all my HH this week but for about 20 situations where I had for example AK gainst A2 or KQ called by JQ I lost 15 times!! always at a crucial instant when I can knock my opponent out..It get o my nerves..I am ok...variance bla bla..I am ok to lose even when I am ahead but it can not be so often..hey its a 70/30!!! So I want to continue because I love this format and yes I am complaining,no I am not saying i am the best player of the world and should win all but I can definitely not think its possible to have an edge when you do the right play and get crushed by the worst hand..over and over...

I already noticed that when I started playing..after several games I took my HH and on the last 100 situations when I was in a situation with a same card but best kicker (AK vs AQ) I won only 52 times...ok 100 it's not enough...mwwwwepp maybe but take cards and give 100 times AK to someone and AQ to someone else..you will never have only 52 times the victory.

Sorry being long and complaining like a fish I probably am but it is so boring and I don't know if you noticed something too .

I lost 22 buy ins today and I would have not loved being crushed by a strong play from my opponent but not that way...I can just not do anything but cry lol

Thx for reading

cdon3822's picture
I think every poker player

I think every poker player knows how you feel. 

The reality is the game has MASSIVE variance relative to TINY edges. 

 

You have to play for the long term and desensitise yourself to the swings if you want to succeed.

One day makes no difference to your results over the long term if you're playing with a sensible bankroll for the limit you're playing.

And accept a winning player will only win something like 50-55% of his sessions. 

 

I can completely relate to your frustration. I've run so bad this year that I'm seriously considering reallocating my time into something else where cause and effect are less randomly linked (pun intended).  

If you're not enjoying the game, take a break. 

The games will still be there when you're feeling refreshed and have passion to play again. 

Barrin's picture
Edges are not tiny after 

Edges are not tiny after  all. Most players simply don't take advantage of their opponents huge  leaks.

Hi.

cdon3822's picture
Not really sure what you

Not really sure what you disagree with?

Is your measure of relativity different to mine?

 

Take hypers for example.

A winning player can beat the games for about 2-3% ROI. 

And 10-40 buyin swings are not uncommon. 

2-3 ROI = tiny edge

10-40 buyin swing = massive variance

 

Or just BB / 100 hands. 

Winning player about 6-15 BB/100 ish. 

Standard deviation of returns, about 80-120 BB/100. 

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
hey its a 70/30!!!   and

hey its a 70/30!!!

 

and that means, that you will lose 30 times out of 100 in the long run. and the long run can be very long at times. in the short run it´s possible you lose 15 or so in a row.  randomness has all sorts of crazy events in stock for you (that´s not even crazy at all). nothing you can do about it. that is the reason that for example a medical study with 14 patients will not be published and certainly no drug will be administered with one study like that. i suggest you study a little probability and statistics to get to know how crazy randomness can be. randomness even allows  for one selected properly controlled double blind study to "prove" that something preposterous like dowsing works. yet if you do that same study over and over again, it will be very clear that dowsing does not work.

 

but i understand your frustration completely. it´s very demotivating if you work on your game, continually get it in good and still lose. being able to deal with the random nature of poker is probably the hardest thing to do.

 

cheers

s.

adam25185's picture
"and that means, that you

"and that means, that you will lose 30 times out of 100 in the long run. and the long run can be very long at times. in the short run it´s possible you lose 15 or so in a row"

1/(0.3^15) = 69,700,000. So, no you cannot really lose 15 in a row. But you can lose 6 or 7, very occasionally.
 

Barrin's picture
And the chance of winning the

And the chance of winning the euro millions jackpot with a single ticket is 1 in 76,275,360...yet there are single ticket players that won it. What's your point?

Hi.

kromaboy99's picture
Thx for your messages...I

Thx for your messages...I have nothing against "downswing" because it's part of the game...but losing all in 1 day it's not a downswing it's a cataclism...I already had downswing and it was ok..you can not win everyday..but now all is gone...players at micros are .....terrible...just 5 min ago they call a 3 bet shove with T7o or 32s and......they win...its not my day but I've lost my profits...I think I will not invest too much time to online poker..it was a nice experience and I was really motivated..good luck guys..I will play few games a week for fun..it's better.

FlyingMachine's picture
You should know, that

You should know, that probably not these situations/bad beats/coolers are the cause, why you can't win, if you have a decent sample like 5-6k+ games. I'm a consistent winner at my stakes, and still had 3k games breakeven, not even once. So I dont know how many hypers have you played, but if its less, dont worry. If its a lot more, still dont worry, try to improve (I know, sometimes it's very hard, don't know where to start, don't have enough willpower etc.).

Don't look only the bad beats, think about other situations. There is probably a lot of hands preflop, you could limp/minraise, but you fold, there are hands, you could light 3bet, but you call, opponents against you can 3bet shove wider, but you don't do it, etc. Watch videos! If you don't have money atm for buying a pack, watch the free videos, you can improve your game a lot with them. I suggest Ph33rox Leakfinder series, Zzztilt, phl500, Sentin vids. And don't only watch these, try to think about the hands, how would've you played it. Think about the hand, before they say in the video, how you should play it in that situation, against that opponent.

Today I ran 18 BI under EV in only 60 games, my longest, sickest downswing was like 110 BI under EV, and I saw the "Graph porn" articles, it can be much more worse. So, it happens with everyone. You can't do anything, to prevent this, it doesn't matter how good you are.

If you write down, which videos, articles etc. you saw about hypers, how you studied the game,  how many matches played, your stats, graphs etc. maybe we can help more. :)

Good luck!
 

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
Don't look only the bad

Don't look only the bad beats, think about other situations. There is probably a lot of hands preflop, you could limp/minraise, but you fold, there are hands, you could light 3bet, but you call, opponents against you can 3bet shove wider, but you don't do it, etc.

 

 

that´s a very good answer. don´t focus on random events, but on those things that you have an influence on. and the important thing is to still have fun. i think the main reason why so many micro limit players are frustrated is because they fall prey to the false promise of making a living from playing cards. and when they realize that it´s not that easy, they get frustrated, because there is such a huge factor involved that is per definition uncontrollable. but the luck factor is probably the main thing that makes poker profitable for the good players. simply because bad players are under the false impression they are good, because they run good. that´s why they keep coming back. that´s why they will donate you money. compare it to chess. noone in chess plays for money way above their skill level, because players more or less know how well they compare to the competition. in poker the bad players don´t. that´s where the money is.

cdon3822's picture
Really solid advice and

Really solid advice and insights in this thread!

Barrin's picture
It is just a 70/30 spot. If

It is just a 70/30 spot. If you believe it is *just* that you win the 70/30 and should never lose it, you don't understand what 70/30 means. If you only see how you do run bad, but never how you run good, you are pretty weak in mind and probably like to tilt a lot too.

Hi.

JEFLUNA's picture
Rigged or not?

 

  Rigged or not ? that's the question in my opinion.

  I have the same problem as Kromaboy99. Sometimes it's too ridiculous what happens. AA, KK, QQ you loose it all against 22, 33 , 67 sooted etc..

 The winning players will say that''s variance and that's true. But why it  happens 8 out of 10 times  on the river??? When I  loose an all in with QQ against KK

 for example then I have no problem with it. But Pokerstars has a very weird system. The say the RNG is certificated and tested. That can be true , but what happens

 AFTER you get the cards. Why didn't they test that?!

 There're people who say that the best players are the people who can recognize the ''patterns'' on Pokerstars. But I think pokerstars is non-personal so there's

a way to get profit from it. When you try it the conventional way it can happen. And the un-conventional way I don't know. Maybe the good players know??? ;- )

Ofcourse they don't want to loose you as a player and money-depositor. But when you google Pokerstars Rigged you can read a lot of stories.

And Yes I still play on Pokerstars for 6 or 7 years now because I like the game and it's the site with the most players and I think there's a way to make money there.

I also think other pokersites are in the same way rigged or even worse. So I think Pokerstars is the best site to play on , but be carefull because it's rigged in a non-personal way in my opinion. And very often on the river!!

Good luck at the Pokerstars-tables!

 

Barrin's picture
If AA, KK and QQ  are rigged,

If AA, KK and QQ  are rigged, why don't you just call any all in push with 82o? It is hard to run under EV with trash hands as such.

Hi.

JEFLUNA's picture
Because....

 You will loose the real trash more often. It's not rigged in a way like let's push or call  with trash and win.

 Maybe they have a game-counter? When I multi-table 2 tables I almost win 1 table and loose 1 table. Never win win win win , loose loose loose , win , loose or something.

Ok that's variance ofcourse...and your winnings are about 53 % if you 're lucky. But what I want to say is that I noticed that too over hundereds or maybe thousands  of games.

But playing trash is not an option. ;- )

Thanks for your reply.

Barrin's picture
Maybe you lack focus when you

Maybe you lack focus when you multitable.

2 weeks ago I played 10 games at William Hill won the first 8,lost the 9th and won the 10th. It sure is rigged, isn't it?

Hi.

JEFLUNA's picture
That's true when...

 In my case that's true when there're 3 tables or more. It will decrease my ROI for sure.

 But 2 tables?...When I play 1 table and the other player is multi-tabling 3 or 4 tables and I have to wait a lot then I get

 frustrated or start doing other things which will also decrease my ROI. So for me 2 tables is the best option. (sometimes 3 when I am in good shape).  :-)

 But I know your opinion about rigged pokersites, but how do you explain why a lot of players complain about river suck outs etc??

Are they all bad players or loosers? Why is it called Riverstars or Jokerstars? by a lot of people?

Don't get me wrong.... I like Pokerstars and I don't want to attack them , but I am also sceptical when I loose my AA against 55 on the RIVER for example.

 

Hi.

 

 

Barrin's picture
Because the bad players spend

Because the bad players spend time complaining in the forums, but the good ones rather spend time make money at the game. Also, praising a pokersite is no good for a professional player. He wants his opponents to be on tilt, because it does increase his edge.

Hi.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
 There're people who say that

 There're people who say that the best players are the people who can recognize the ''patterns'' on Pokerstars.

 

if it´s only a half way proper RNG, there are no recognizable patterns. what happens is that you think you see a pattern where there is none. that´s how astrology works for example (include a couple of barnum statements and there you go). the human brain has for survival purposes evolved  an extraordinarily good pattern recognition system. i.e. it´s better to recognize a tiger in the bushes where there is none, rather than oversee one. our brain is programmed to live in a world of cause and effect. randomness has no place in our natural perception of the world. that´s why we see cause where there is none and come up with things like religion, or conspiracy theories, or believe that online poker is rigged.

 

there´s one thing i really don´t understand about such conspiracy theories: if you think, pokerstars is cheating you, why do you play? is there masochism involved? i really don´t get it.

RyPac13's picture
"There're people who say that

"There're people who say that the best players are the people who can recognize the ''patterns'' on Pokerstars."

There are people that wear tin foil hats 24/7 too, to prevent the aliens from getting them.

On a serious note though, the only thing we can control is how good we play. And if we're constantly losing, we're not playing well enough. If we can't handle that thought, if we can't take full responsibility and if we always feel like it's just bad beats holding us back, then we're destined to lose money. I'm using we as in "anyone" here. The thoughts you're having, many good players have them at times, but if you're always having these thoughts, it's probably best to not play at all.

JEFLUNA's picture
I understand that...

 I understand that this subject is sensitive. In the past I made some profit at times then lose it , win it back and so on.

I think you can make profit on Pokerstars , there's proof enough for that. But there're times it's like the doomswitch is on.

And the way you make your profit is not with that stupid luck, but by ''normal'' play. For example I win with my TT against 33 and not I win with my 33 against TT.

The reason I still play on PS is because it's the biggest FT is not available in the country I live yet. I am sure there must be a way to make some profit (I did in the past).

The software and bonus you can achieve are very nice and they have a lot of freerolls. And when it's rigged for anyone you can call it variance...lol.

For real...I think PS pokerstars has his own algorithm wich is sometimes very frustrating, and looks like rigged, but why should they? ,making hundreds of million dollars

a year? That would be stupid in my opinion.

So that's why ...I try to improve my game and make some profit again. AND...no I am not a masochist even if I try to...;-)

 

kromaboy99's picture
As I explained in my post I

As I explained in my post I don't say pokerstars is rigged and I know there are a lot of winning players so I am ok with the fact I still have to train to get better..and maybe Barrin is right I am probably mentaly weak..I am not complaining with the fact you lose AA against KK it happends...and I have this every day but it's ok,it's the game..I really noticed something wrong when I have one card the same as my opponent but with a better kicker and lose again and again..it can not be possible that card is always falling..if someone want I can give my HH of the last day..I made 53 games and I can't even count how many situation like that I lost...much more than the ones I won because I feel really nervous now when I am in those situations so I know which one I won and which one I lost.

To answer I watch a lots of videos, I registered here on HUSNG and also took 1 hour coaching by Zzztilt who told me honnestly I could play higher than my actual level..but I am scared to play higher because I don't have much money to "risk" I prefer to climb step by step from 1,50

I would only know if somebody else has felt something like this or if it is only me..maybe I am paranoiak :-)

So don't be wrong, I don't blame the game..I don't say I am the best and I could win all of the money and everytime I have AK against AQ...but for me the outcome of the cards on pokerstars is already hard enough..if I also win 50% of my 70/30 it becomes impossible...PLEASE JUST TELL ME I AM PARANOIAK

FlyingMachine's picture
How big is your sample, and

How big is your sample, and how much is your EV ROI? And post a 10 minute leakfinder video, maybe we find something. :)

cdon3822's picture
DiplKomp pretty much said

DiplKomp pretty much said it.

70/30 means you win 70% of the time and lose 30% of the time. 

Familarise yourself with some statistics, even run some binomial distribution 70/30 simulations to align your expectations with what happens in reality. 

 

But FlyingMachine was right to point out => these are not the instances you should be focused on

The times you get all in as a 70/30 favourite should be seen as successes. 

That said, if your opponent would have done the same thing  if the roles were reversed (eg. you get AK in preflop vs AQ @ 25b), then frankly it doesn't even matter because over time while this play was +EV in isolation, as your strategies interact over time they will net out to zero (or negative due to the rake). 

To engineer a recipricol edge vs your opponents you need to find spots where you play more +EV than your opponent. 

The way most people think about the game (hand strength based thinking) creates frequency imbalances in a lot of spots. 

If you can identify and exploit enough of these imbalances in their strategy you will start to build a sizable edge over your opponents. 

I think poker requires a lot deeper thinking and hard work than most people believe. 

 

Not sure if you're read it or not, but I would highly recommend Will Tipton's book. 

A lot of books & older videos offer heuristic advice on how to beat game conditions that simply don't exist anymore as the game has moved on. 

Will's book offers a framework for thinking about the game.

At ~$25 it's incredibly good value relative to other sources of information available.

It will take at least a couple of reads to digest the information and reap full value, but I think your framework through which you view the game would benefit from it immensely. 

xxx666xx's picture
i know the same

had yesterday one of these days. losing ten bi in a row. my hard worked money i won earlier-all gone. today i madeit all back. to get sucked out is normal-happens not just to u. but i sucked out other people also by hiting the river or got a set when they have a higher pair. i am trying also to work my way up. its hard-the swings in hypers can made u mad-keep on trying and not to tilt. may be buy a vid pack. ich bought sentins.

gl at the tables

666

cdon3822's picture
Lol what happened?!

The really solid advice and insights have now been diluted since I last read this thread lol.

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
read again tomorrow and

read again tomorrow and godwin´s law might have kicked in :)

Barrin's picture
Hopeless. Quirk's exception

Hopeless. Quirk's exception has ruled now and the thread cannot fulfill Godwin's law anymore. ;)

Cdon; this thread never had the framework for a serious discussion. It is just another 'i cannot win, so poker is rigged' thread and there thousands of them.

Hi.

kromaboy99's picture
no sorry Barrin it is not,I

no sorry Barrin it is not,I don't say it's rigged I would just know if other people noticed the same I seems feel. It's ok I am paranoiak and its better like that because I want to get better.To answer another question.. I played 2300 HU HT at 1,5 with a 3% ROI, was in the leader board sharkscope in january and february..ok it's a ridiculous "limit" but I was happy with my progression. I moved to 3,5 and lost it all without remarking a big difference in the game..sometimes I even find players worst lol but I am probably as bad as them because I lost it all in 2 days.

i understand that kind of topic can be boring for winning players..I will try to post few hands to try to find leaks I probably have

Good luck to you all

kromaboy99's picture
I come here again to

I come here again to apologize about my post! I checked few hands in pokertracker...I checked all the time i was all in in a 70/30 situation with AKo, AQo and Ajo and the results are not what my "perception" was..I won most part of these all in situations.. so I have nothing else to say..I was wrong..it's amazing how the perception can be when you are playing.

Can you tell me if my analyze was good..I went into pokertracker-->statistics--->Holdem hand range visualizer-->volunt put money in pot% then I checked all my all in situations with those 3 hands where AI equity was around 70% . Was it the right way to analyze?

 

Dipl.Komp.'s picture
I come here again to

I come here again to apologize about my post!  [...] I was wrong..it's amazing how the perception can be when you are playing.

no need to apologize. you didn´t insult nor offend anyone.

the reason you got such answers is probably due to the fact that most players who make such complaints don´t have the insight and the courage to admit when the are under a misapprehension. admitting that on your part deserves respect. not many people do that actually.

 

cheers

s.

 

Barrin's picture
This is exactly why I called

This is exactly why I called this a whine-thread. It was not because I wanted to hurt or flame you at all, but because, you wasted your time. You could had done the analysis before, but, and I am just asuming, you only did the analysis to maybe proof me wrong.

That we remember hands that went bad remember longer and therefore might get the feeling, that (poker) life is not just, is a scientific fact. Jared Tendler explains his well in his book.

It is pretty much like when your girlfriend breaks up with you...in order to get ride of the pain, you will eventually start thinking about what you loved on her and beginn thinking about what you hate about her. On the other hand, if your wife, which you loved very much, dies, you wanna keep the memory alive and prefer remembering the great stuff about her and it does not matter that, due to the fact that you keep your memory alive, also keep the pain of remembering alive.

If you wanna get rid of your tilt, you need to understand what happens and need to not lose focus. No matter how great a player you are, when you tilt you lose and if things go badly you might end up in a death-spiral that you are not able to escape.

Hi.

chewbaka's picture
Don't worry about it.  I've

Don't worry about it.  I've been there before and came out alive and stronger than ever.  If you keep you head up and not to tilt while playing, you will come out alive as well.

xxx666xx's picture
bankrollmanagment

when u lose it all in two days, how much bi u had for the level u where playing?

u think u tilted when u where on a losing streak?

my be thats the point.

gl

666

kromaboy99's picture
Hello, I explained in a

Hello,

I explained in a previous post I was sorry to have complained about Pokerstars in the past..ok playing hyper on PS is not always fun because when you're in a bad run...everything goes really bad games after games but I knew my play was not optimal and I worked a lot on it and even if bad beats often happends I know it's poker and I can live with it ;-)

 

Thx

Catman's picture
One major factor you are

One major factor you are probably overlooking is the fact that the vast majority of micro stakes players are a mixture of drunks, drug users and idiots. They make no sense at all  at what they do.  You will most likely be a major favourite when the money goes in as you are a better player so are less likely to get your chips in when behind.

As for pokerstars being corrupt, any business which is the biggest  is corrupt one way or another.