Hi Fydor_8,

Great video, I really enjoyed it. Definitely an area of my game that I need to work on, so your video is much appreciated.

I had a question about why you pushed the K2 in the above screenshot? You were unwilling to push AK elsewhere in the game because of being worried about only being a flip to win, but I can't see how pushing the K2 can be a shove here by the same logic if AK wasn't?

Look forward to seeing more videos from you!

John

Haven't seen the video yet, but maybe it's because you're shoving K2 for fold equity, but you don't mind playing AK the regular way because it's a lot stronger?

Hey Radeh,

Good point, I'm guessing the opponent isn't going to call a full stack shove pre without something good. But if the villian happens to pick up a hand of any type we're in trouble if he calls, whereas that wouldn't be the case with the AK so much where we'd often be 50% minimum to win.

Guess it seems kind of counter-intuitive to me that we'd push our better hands less and risk less with them than with our bad hands.

Ok guys, thats a good question. Lets look over both situations:
I pick up AK in the BB and am facing a raise. Although a shove is standard and is totally fine, I decided to go with a small 3bet so that I could get a lot of weaker hands to call me..whereas if I just shoved, his calling range would be pretty small. I am trying to build a big pot that I can potentially win on the flop without even getting to a showdown. Also, if he were to shove PF, I am definately going to snap call with AK. So basically, it comes down to me making an attempt to win a large pot without even getting to a show down and potentially making a better hand fold on the flop. Unlike to what some may think, its not about me not wanted to get it is "only" as a flip...bc I am calling a shove PF and as i mentioned previously, shoved AK there is totally fine. Let me use an example to clarify this:
He raises 22 and I shove...he calls and we're 50-50.
He raises AQ and I shove...he calls and we're way ahead.
He rasies XX and I shove....he folds and we win a small pot.
Now, If we make the small 3bet instead, planning to call any shove, we can take advantage of times where he just flat calls out 3 bet.
For example, he raises 22 and I 3bet...he calls. Flop is Q 10 6....I open shove (as we planned on doing regardless of the flop becuase of the remaining chip stacks and the size of the pot). Although hands like 22 are ahead here, they will have a very hard time calling, because they have no way of knowing where they stand. This can lead them to fold their hands and have us win a nice pot even if we were behind. If he calls, then we can pretend we got it in PF and still get to see 5 cards...making it a race (in theory).
Now, I shoved K2 because I did only have about 12 BB and didnt want to turn my hand into a bluff, raise and fold to a 3bet or shove. So I simply decided to shove PF, taking advantage of his fold equity and since i will be in a decent spot most of the time, even if he calls....like we saw with AQ vs K2.

Hope that cleared up any uncertainties...let me know!
Fydor_8

Hi Fydor,

Thanks for the detailed reply. That makes good sense. You're clearly thinking several levels above me with my caveman blunt instrument shove-or-fold thinking :) I was thinking of it purely as a showdown situation rather than considering the non-showdown potential of folding the opponent on the flop.

John

Nice answer fydor...btw, you can obv pull of the same play with other strong hands such as KK/KQ/QQ. Also, against aggros (and only aggros!!), I sometimes limp monsters like that to get them to shove over it...seems to work more than it technically should :)

Would like to download your video, but have to wait till my connections better...

Thats also a good point but we need to keep in mind that we must be able to vary our play. When playing a thinking opponent, or someone who has some reads on us, we must mix it up once and a while. We cannot always 3bet-shove hands like A5 and then small 3bet hands like AK, KK, AA, QQ etc..or else we risk giving away the strength of our hand. Therefore, we must be able to make both plays with both hands...3bet shoving with AK+ and small 3bet with A5 etc...just so we stay unpredictable. 
This is definately a good play but it cannot be a something we do every time this situation presents itself or else we risk becoming predictable.

Totally agree on merging your ranges...unless your playing lowstakes, where there really is no need for it at all :)

Greetings Fydor8,

I just wanted to compliment you on a fantastic video.  Compared to your first video, you've certainly picked up a lot of momentum in terms of your pacing, clarity of explanations, and confidence.  At least that's my impression.  You just seemed more comfortable and everything flowed more naturally.  Also, the analysis was easy to grasp as you didn't use overly technical language or convoluted reasoning.  The stop and go concept with the AK hand (in the BB I believe) made great sense (I think that's what it's called). 

Back to the K2o hand.  The blinds were 40/80 and the opponent's stack was 1,020.  So 1,020/80=12.75 BB.  I keep my Nash Equilibrium chart on my desk and the push cart says K2o is 11.6 BB.  While I understand your reasoning for not min raising, I'm wondering if you'd consider any alternative courses of action like mucking or limping.  Of course, you are getting fold equity like you mentioned and this hand is really not going to like a lot of flops.  However, it just seems somewhat marginal to this beginner.  Did you have any reads on this player that swayed your decision one way or another?  I know you already answered this in depth, so excuse me for pestering you as I'm just curious.

Thanks for the five star video,

Jeffrey

Regarding the K2o hand that REBTgenius is talking about..when using Nash isn't that only accurate if your ooponent is using Nash also? Meaning using Chubukov makes this a pretty easy push especially if you think villians calling range is kinda narrow? Sorry I'm at work and haven't watched the video yet and I'm kind of bored. I'm still not to familiar with Nash to well and I may be completely misunderstanding this stuff.

My opponent had been pretty tight preflop and I did figure that I could steal his blind pretty easily, and if I didnt i would still be in a decent spot. You suggest taking a different route: either folding or limping. Of the two, I dont really see them being a better play than the shove. But if we were to consider them, I would prefer folding over limping in, simply because a limp seems super weak and we're basically HOPING that he checks behind in the BB because we are folding to any raise/shove..so for that reason I do prefer simply folding the hand rather than limping in with it...if u dont feel comfortable with the shove.

I'm a stuent of fydor and this was a cool vid for me because end game is probably one of my biggest leaks. We only did one session but he definitely sealed a lot of my leaks, which was being too passive with my hands. Here, in this video, I definitely I learned some new concepts.Hopefully, I can try out these go-and-go moves on regs/fish with AJ AQ AK sometime soon. 

I think overshoving k2 can not be ok

If it's generally accepted that the Nash number of 11.6 for K2o is a decent "default" stopping point to shoving and folding, then you'll certainly come up against guys (tighter players) where 12-14bbs will be fine.

In reality, you can probably shove this 20bb deep and become profitable against a tight opponent.

Now, being profitable and being max profitable are two entirely different things.  From the way the hand is described in these comments, it sounds like shoving was a good idea.

Limping is only better if you know the player will check back quite often.  Minraising only works if the player won't 3-bet you very often.  So if those two options aren't really logical, then it's either a shove or a fold.  Since this player was described as somewhat tight, shoving for a little more than NASH suggests sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Regardless, I am almost positive it was a profitable shove.  I think the better argument could be "was it the best decision" since we often have more than one profitable choice to make (such as AA 75bbs deep, you could open shove it for profit, or raise anywhere from 2x to 50x and it's still profitable, though that is a much more basic example, but you can apply it to many areas of husngs and you'll see we're faced with multiple decisions, many of which are profitable).

Since this is only the end game of the game, but can you give another description of why you folded A10 to his 3 bet? Was it just gameflow and his 3 betting range was that tight? It seems like he was opening his buttons with a wide range, maybe his 3 bet range is fairly a bit looser as well since you minraise your buttons as much as he does? Am I wrong to 4 bet shove in this spot? This was in the first game and also, nice run of cards in the beginning of the video =).

Also, with the A5cc, how come you elected to just flat his raise instead of 3 bet shoving? It seems like hes opening with a wide range on his buttons. What happens if you missed that flop and he did c bet? Are you c/f everytime?

Greetings Ryan,

Your analysis of the K2o hand and why it was the optimal decision (among many profitable alternatives) was both clear and convincing.  When I use the Nash Chart I try not to follow it to an absolute T, and make adjustments depending on my opponents tendencies.  I think the case you and Fydor have made is very compelling in favor of the all-in raise.  The adjustment seems sound.

 Against an unknown I would have folded it.  Against a tight aggro I would have raised all-in.  Against a LAG I would fold.  Against a tight passive I might min raise if they show a propensity to fold a lot to a min raises.  If they play fit or fold I would likely limp and bet most flops.  Is this generally correct reasoning?  I know I'm making generalizations, but I'd love to get some feedback anway.

Thank you,

Jeffrey

No Jeffrey, those are very good generalizations.

Limp is better than fold if they allow you to limp.  Minraise is better than limp if they fold a lot and/or don't shove often over your minraise.  Shove is better than fold if they fold enough to the shove, and fold is the best choice if they are truly lag.

Ok, I just wanted to clear up this situation. I folded the A10 hand to a 3bet, and this is by no means standard. I dont mind a flat call in that situation if you are unaware of his 3bet raising or 4bet calling ranges. In my case, i simply elected to fold the A10 because I was running out of time due of past explanations and didnt want to rush into the hand without putting much thought into it (as I think i mentioned in the video too). A 4bet would be fine against an aggressive opponent though, since we do have some fold equity. 
As for the A5 hand, I elected to just call instead of shoving just to mix it up a little. We need to be able to just flat call some
A-high hands as well and not only call with purely margional hands. In that case, when an A hits the flop, he will have a hard time giving us credit for having one (due to the simple fact that a standard play would be to 3bet shove any A-high hands) and we can probably get some additional value out of them...as we saw here where he elected to double barrel me.
Hope that clears it up a little....

Oh alright. Yeah I was just a little confused on the lines you took, but it sounds reasonable. I guess i should incorporate mixing up my a high hands as well. Thank you for the explanation.

Nice vid! I have few questions.

13BB shove w/ QTs? I tend to minraise that kind of a hands that flops quite nicely. Is that really a bad thing?

15:54 14BB he limps and you have K3s why is checking > shoving? I think villain often folds a ton here and that gives us permission to shove. K3 also plays poorly post flop.

Flop is JT2r and it's checked down. Turn Kh (2 hearts now) You bet 100 to 120 pot and he calls, River As and you are going to c/c. But what is he betting w/ that you beat besides some weird low flush draw. I mean he often has some pair but he is going to check it down